I have a little different understanding of these issues. If someone is opposed to eating meat, that’s a personal choice and I respect it. But ecologically, grazing animals can be a great asset.
I have a little different understanding of these issues. If someone is opposed to eating meat, that’s a personal choice and I respect it. But ecologically, grazing animals can be a great asset.
I know I’ve heard that, and if human population numbers were merely in the tens of millions worldwide I could see this scientifically as a possibility, but when you’re talking about the United States and it’s national population of both rich and poor who can take for granted a daily oversupply of meat and other animal products the science shows this is unsustainable. Even the free range grass fed method of animal farming for such a large population of human consumers is not possible with the lands needed for this. I look at the science. We’ve been duped, all of us, by the propaganda of the meat industry as much as the war industry if you trace the history of advertising and our complete separation of the psychological pain and physical trauma of raising and slaughtering animals. Chris Hedges thankfully understands and has brought this to light more than once. We need to liberate animals from our exploitation as much as we need fair trade and the end of human slavery. The environmental movement that I have supported since childhood in the 60’s has rightfully been called out on this because the myth of the need for animal protein is so profitable and so well entrenched in the U.S. and other societies.The healthiest societies overall always have next to no animal flesh in the diet, and now we know most of us are not only healthier without it when done right but end animal slavery.
All due respect, I cannot embrace your conclusions. Not sure how much you want to engage on this. I can do a zoom or phone call but there are too many interconnected issues to resolve this via written exchange.
I meant no disrespect, I know this is an unpopular issue, hopefully we can discuss it in another form later. Thanks for replying. Correction, what I should have said is it’s unpopular with some, but in reality, veganism is growing and gaining more popularity all the time.
You are not willing to or prepared to accept that the science is settled on Animal Agriculture being utterly unsustainable. That Animal Agriculture is a huge contributor to Greenhouse Gas production, is the largest spoiler of fresh water, and the largest culprit to deforestation.
The ethical consideration and morality of killing another living being to satisfy selfish desires is not a part of the equation.
So, if beings from somewhere in the Universe, beings that consider themselves superior to human beings, find Earth and visit here with the intention of satisfying their hunger with humans, you are okay with the sock being on the other shoe.
The last film I viewed to speak to this whole human eating issue was "They're Trying To Kill Us" . . . . ought to be required viewing for every adult.
I watched the clip. Thank you for posting this! I donated about 12 vegan cookbooks to my local libraries, one called Afro-Vegan that discusses the concept of food justice. Very important film.
I’ve seen part of Cowspiracy, saw all of Chris Hedges’ interview about which should still be available free on YouTube. Being vegan for so long I always look at films relating to the subject and protecting the environment, thanks for mentioning them here.
One of the scenes in that movie (They're Trying To Kill Us) features a octogenarian hog farmer. He's quite comfortable and candid about his "trade". I'll paraphrase his spoken thoughts:
I used to kill people when I was a tobacco farmer, now I'm killing people farming hogs.
I appreciate you adding your comment to this exchange Freeman. Hope you’ll check out my comment on the work of Animal Rebellion on Chris’ latest article and look at their recent YouTube video.
You were more tactful than I was responding to Hart who I was having a frustrating discussion. I still can’t leave well enough alone, my latest online discussion ended up bad, but I think you got across your ideas well when discussing climate and animal farming. It’s still shocking to me what people will say just like the hog farmer you mentioned.
I can’t find your comment about your response about the science regarding livestock farming but wanted to ask you, can you explain to me in a way most people can understand where the flaws are in coming to a conclusion that large scale livestock farming is unsustainable? Another thought to consider about continuing this course of continuing to consume large amount of meat and other animal products is, wouldn’t it be easier on workers to process plants rather than stand in an inch or more of blood and look at corpses all day, when it has been proven eating this is not a biological necessity? Except in times of desperation of course.
From an ecological standpoint, it’s important to ask where your food comes from. Do you know where your food comes from?
Plant based versus meat is not a meaningful distinction. There are too many variations in each theme. Either can be destructive and either can be regenerative.
If you plow a field, this process kills thousands of animals per acre, actually millions of animals per acre.
I am not thrilled that an animal has to die to feed me, but where does vegan food come from? Is it ethical? Sustainable? Regenerative?
Annual crops grown in tilled soil and/or grown with chemical pesticides and fertilizers are terrible for the environment, including lots of animals.
I feel better eating meat, milk and eggs where the animals are humanely raised. I consume meat with sadness, respect and gratitude.
And I try to eat meat that was raised locally, regeneratively and humanely. That part is very important. But it’s a growth area. Progress not perfection.
From an ecological standpoint, it’s important to ask where your food comes from. Do you know where your food comes from?
Plant based versus meat is not a meaningful distinction. There are too many variations in each theme. Either can be destructive and either can be regenerative.
If you plow a field, this process kills thousands of animals per acre, actually millions of animals per acre.
I am not thrilled that an animal has to die to feed me, but where does vegan food come from? Is it ethical? Sustainable? Regenerative?
Annual crops grown in tilled soil and/or grown with chemical pesticides and fertilizers are terrible for the environment, including lots of animals.
I feel better eating meat, milk and eggs where the animals are humanely raised.
I am in support of regenerative agriculture as are you and I respect and appreciate the work you are doing. I certainly don’t want you to feel resentful with my comments, I am sorry if I came off that way.If I could afford it I would eat organic, so I’m far from living all my principles. We can definitely improve welfare for farmed animals but from seeing videos by Earthling Ed or Plant based news, investigations are showing maintaining high welfare standards for farm animals are not reliable. I am not trying to sound morally superior, only trying to offer an idea which I think would be in harmony with your goals and beliefs. It was your concern for the planet which opened the door for me. Veganism like any particular cause is not the be all or end all or the only solution but is an enormous contribution to the world and is better for your health if one has a plant based source of B12, fresh produce, whole grains and beans.
what created this problem is the fact that now most people live in the cities.
They don't have a garden and a few of chickens. Get people to rip their lawn and grow a garden. Fight to have city by-law changed so people can have chickens. Buy local meat if you can. Urbanization is the source of the problem. In the mean while the Gates , ihh, Zukerberg and the very rich are buying all the farm land. They want to control the food supply.
I agree it’s a crime billionaires can have such control over so many people, especially the food supply. I think ripping up the yard and growing a garden is the way to go, and at this point I think people are going to realize soon it’s imperative. I would ask though, to reconsider keeping chicken or other animals for slaughter and find protein sources from plants. Certainly the birds raised at home can have better lives than the factory farmed ones, but how about when they’re sick? Isn’t important they get necessary medical treatment, even if the cost far exceeds the price of the animal? With an unprecedented wealth of knowledge worldwide available, we are more aware of the sentience of such creatures and I would ask that we be merciful and care for them as our children or favorites pets than as livestock. Your back to the land idea is an important one to share.
Not only a great asset, but a necessary one as livestock is the best way to keep and grow organic soil, in order to grow anything. Chemical Fertilizer is a highly oil dependent product that does not benefit the soil in the long run, its application just help ones years crops and then has to be applied again next year. There is an abundance of pasture land that is not good for growing anything else. This pasture land can sustain an incredible amount of livestock, thereby feeding many, many people.
I’m not in favor of chemical fertilizers either. I’ll start sending more studies to support my claims but the world now, largely because of the video exposure of animal farming and slaughter is losing popularity because the gruesome reality of it is not something most people want to be a part of. How many people here recall Chris Hedges’ interview with the makers of Cowspiracy? Until they just pulled all his reports, you could see it just a few days ago on YouTube. Put in the title Cowspiracy and you should be able to find it with a search engine.I think it makes pretty good sense that if we were meant to be carnivores there wouldn’t be so much resentment about veganism. We would feel no more guilt or have to repress that emotion than a tiger does when killing an animal it has no choice but to eat. The vegan movement is growing fast worldwide.
I haven’t seen Cowspiracy. I WOULD take time to watch it if I had someone who was interested in a serious dialogue and was also willing to watch a video of my choice.
For people who want to promote veganism from an ecological standpoint, I think they should understand the basics of how grazing animals help store carbon and can play an important role in a functioning ecosystem.
Here is Gabe Brown whose ranch has been thoroughly examined over the course of time by qualified scientists. He has stored a lot of carbon in the ground and has restored water cycles and ecosystems on his ranch.
I am with you Hart - I have read Gage Brown as well and my stepdaughter is practicing as much of what Brown proposes as she can. It is difficult to understand where people think how the stuff if life can be created without organic soil creation.
I’m back. Here’s a video by Chris Hedges himself who did this interview over 5 years ago which is still available for free on YouTube. It is an interview with the makers of Cowspiracy that focuses on the refusal of environmental groups to deal with the impact on climate with large scale animal agriculture. At least one of the producers is in favor of regenerative agriculture as well, only plant based. Please watch: https://YouTube.be/ynWHUmRzNBA
I can’t prove I’ll watch it but I will today.With all respect to you I’m not here to keep an argument going, I know the water usage alone to raise flesh from living creatures is greater than what is necessary to grow grain, and eliminates the need to kill and confine animals. Would the health science alone on veganism alone not make you consider there is some correlation between the health of ecosystems? My opinion is we should spay and neuter all the domesticated animals consumed and give most of the land back to the Buffalo, maybe work with Native tribes, even if they kill and consume Buffalo similar to their old ways.
No matter what you say, I’m going to continue to ask the world to go vegan and show mercy to the animals as much as possible. I forgot to mention that according to some studies, veganism is the fastest growing peace movement in the world.U.S. vegans currently are around 10% of the population according to Veganoutreach.org. I don’t know exactly who they got to do the research but you are welcome to ask them. Thank you again for your contributions to the world but I think it’s best to end the conversation here as I wish to avoid any resentment by defending what I stand for. Have a good day.
Check out my comment showing the link to Chris Hedges’ broadcast with the makers of Cowspiracy over 5 years ago. As of today at least, it’s still available for free on YouTube.
The entire Cowspiracy movie is on YouTube for free if that helps.Correction: the free documentary is Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret. The movie itself is available for a cost.
I have a little different understanding of these issues. If someone is opposed to eating meat, that’s a personal choice and I respect it. But ecologically, grazing animals can be a great asset.
I know I’ve heard that, and if human population numbers were merely in the tens of millions worldwide I could see this scientifically as a possibility, but when you’re talking about the United States and it’s national population of both rich and poor who can take for granted a daily oversupply of meat and other animal products the science shows this is unsustainable. Even the free range grass fed method of animal farming for such a large population of human consumers is not possible with the lands needed for this. I look at the science. We’ve been duped, all of us, by the propaganda of the meat industry as much as the war industry if you trace the history of advertising and our complete separation of the psychological pain and physical trauma of raising and slaughtering animals. Chris Hedges thankfully understands and has brought this to light more than once. We need to liberate animals from our exploitation as much as we need fair trade and the end of human slavery. The environmental movement that I have supported since childhood in the 60’s has rightfully been called out on this because the myth of the need for animal protein is so profitable and so well entrenched in the U.S. and other societies.The healthiest societies overall always have next to no animal flesh in the diet, and now we know most of us are not only healthier without it when done right but end animal slavery.
All due respect, I cannot embrace your conclusions. Not sure how much you want to engage on this. I can do a zoom or phone call but there are too many interconnected issues to resolve this via written exchange.
I meant no disrespect, I know this is an unpopular issue, hopefully we can discuss it in another form later. Thanks for replying. Correction, what I should have said is it’s unpopular with some, but in reality, veganism is growing and gaining more popularity all the time.
Of course. Thank you as well.
Allow me the presumption of cutting to the chase.
You are not willing to or prepared to accept that the science is settled on Animal Agriculture being utterly unsustainable. That Animal Agriculture is a huge contributor to Greenhouse Gas production, is the largest spoiler of fresh water, and the largest culprit to deforestation.
The ethical consideration and morality of killing another living being to satisfy selfish desires is not a part of the equation.
So, if beings from somewhere in the Universe, beings that consider themselves superior to human beings, find Earth and visit here with the intention of satisfying their hunger with humans, you are okay with the sock being on the other shoe.
The last film I viewed to speak to this whole human eating issue was "They're Trying To Kill Us" . . . . ought to be required viewing for every adult.
https://www.theyretryingtokillus.com
You wouldn’t survive five minutes in an actual debate.
There's not really anything to "debate".
The ONLY reason you eat meat is to satisfy your selfish desires.
I watched the clip. Thank you for posting this! I donated about 12 vegan cookbooks to my local libraries, one called Afro-Vegan that discusses the concept of food justice. Very important film.
There is a small handful of films that provide a wealth of information about humans and their proclivity for unsustainable practices.
Ice On Fire
Cowspiracy
What The Health
They're Trying To Kill Us
The Age Of Consequences
I’ve seen part of Cowspiracy, saw all of Chris Hedges’ interview about which should still be available free on YouTube. Being vegan for so long I always look at films relating to the subject and protecting the environment, thanks for mentioning them here.
One of the scenes in that movie (They're Trying To Kill Us) features a octogenarian hog farmer. He's quite comfortable and candid about his "trade". I'll paraphrase his spoken thoughts:
I used to kill people when I was a tobacco farmer, now I'm killing people farming hogs.
Wow to say the least.
I appreciate you adding your comment to this exchange Freeman. Hope you’ll check out my comment on the work of Animal Rebellion on Chris’ latest article and look at their recent YouTube video.
You were more tactful than I was responding to Hart who I was having a frustrating discussion. I still can’t leave well enough alone, my latest online discussion ended up bad, but I think you got across your ideas well when discussing climate and animal farming. It’s still shocking to me what people will say just like the hog farmer you mentioned.
Yeah, wrt that?
Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt. ;-)
I have no investment in 'winning' a contest with someone making up definitions, rules, and alternate realities void of science and fact.
..
I can’t find your comment about your response about the science regarding livestock farming but wanted to ask you, can you explain to me in a way most people can understand where the flaws are in coming to a conclusion that large scale livestock farming is unsustainable? Another thought to consider about continuing this course of continuing to consume large amount of meat and other animal products is, wouldn’t it be easier on workers to process plants rather than stand in an inch or more of blood and look at corpses all day, when it has been proven eating this is not a biological necessity? Except in times of desperation of course.
From an ecological standpoint, it’s important to ask where your food comes from. Do you know where your food comes from?
Plant based versus meat is not a meaningful distinction. There are too many variations in each theme. Either can be destructive and either can be regenerative.
If you plow a field, this process kills thousands of animals per acre, actually millions of animals per acre.
I am not thrilled that an animal has to die to feed me, but where does vegan food come from? Is it ethical? Sustainable? Regenerative?
Annual crops grown in tilled soil and/or grown with chemical pesticides and fertilizers are terrible for the environment, including lots of animals.
I feel better eating meat, milk and eggs where the animals are humanely raised. I consume meat with sadness, respect and gratitude.
And I try to eat meat that was raised locally, regeneratively and humanely. That part is very important. But it’s a growth area. Progress not perfection.
From an ecological standpoint, it’s important to ask where your food comes from. Do you know where your food comes from?
Plant based versus meat is not a meaningful distinction. There are too many variations in each theme. Either can be destructive and either can be regenerative.
If you plow a field, this process kills thousands of animals per acre, actually millions of animals per acre.
I am not thrilled that an animal has to die to feed me, but where does vegan food come from? Is it ethical? Sustainable? Regenerative?
Annual crops grown in tilled soil and/or grown with chemical pesticides and fertilizers are terrible for the environment, including lots of animals.
I feel better eating meat, milk and eggs where the animals are humanely raised.
I am in support of regenerative agriculture as are you and I respect and appreciate the work you are doing. I certainly don’t want you to feel resentful with my comments, I am sorry if I came off that way.If I could afford it I would eat organic, so I’m far from living all my principles. We can definitely improve welfare for farmed animals but from seeing videos by Earthling Ed or Plant based news, investigations are showing maintaining high welfare standards for farm animals are not reliable. I am not trying to sound morally superior, only trying to offer an idea which I think would be in harmony with your goals and beliefs. It was your concern for the planet which opened the door for me. Veganism like any particular cause is not the be all or end all or the only solution but is an enormous contribution to the world and is better for your health if one has a plant based source of B12, fresh produce, whole grains and beans.
I am not at all offended by your comments. I am glad we can talk about it.
I might have mistakenly deleted part of our conversation. Feel free to repost the link you shared with me.
what created this problem is the fact that now most people live in the cities.
They don't have a garden and a few of chickens. Get people to rip their lawn and grow a garden. Fight to have city by-law changed so people can have chickens. Buy local meat if you can. Urbanization is the source of the problem. In the mean while the Gates , ihh, Zukerberg and the very rich are buying all the farm land. They want to control the food supply.
I agree it’s a crime billionaires can have such control over so many people, especially the food supply. I think ripping up the yard and growing a garden is the way to go, and at this point I think people are going to realize soon it’s imperative. I would ask though, to reconsider keeping chicken or other animals for slaughter and find protein sources from plants. Certainly the birds raised at home can have better lives than the factory farmed ones, but how about when they’re sick? Isn’t important they get necessary medical treatment, even if the cost far exceeds the price of the animal? With an unprecedented wealth of knowledge worldwide available, we are more aware of the sentience of such creatures and I would ask that we be merciful and care for them as our children or favorites pets than as livestock. Your back to the land idea is an important one to share.
Not only a great asset, but a necessary one as livestock is the best way to keep and grow organic soil, in order to grow anything. Chemical Fertilizer is a highly oil dependent product that does not benefit the soil in the long run, its application just help ones years crops and then has to be applied again next year. There is an abundance of pasture land that is not good for growing anything else. This pasture land can sustain an incredible amount of livestock, thereby feeding many, many people.
I’m not in favor of chemical fertilizers either. I’ll start sending more studies to support my claims but the world now, largely because of the video exposure of animal farming and slaughter is losing popularity because the gruesome reality of it is not something most people want to be a part of. How many people here recall Chris Hedges’ interview with the makers of Cowspiracy? Until they just pulled all his reports, you could see it just a few days ago on YouTube. Put in the title Cowspiracy and you should be able to find it with a search engine.I think it makes pretty good sense that if we were meant to be carnivores there wouldn’t be so much resentment about veganism. We would feel no more guilt or have to repress that emotion than a tiger does when killing an animal it has no choice but to eat. The vegan movement is growing fast worldwide.
I haven’t seen Cowspiracy. I WOULD take time to watch it if I had someone who was interested in a serious dialogue and was also willing to watch a video of my choice.
For people who want to promote veganism from an ecological standpoint, I think they should understand the basics of how grazing animals help store carbon and can play an important role in a functioning ecosystem.
Here is Gabe Brown whose ranch has been thoroughly examined over the course of time by qualified scientists. He has stored a lot of carbon in the ground and has restored water cycles and ecosystems on his ranch.
https://youtu.be/uUmIdq0D6-A
I am with you Hart - I have read Gage Brown as well and my stepdaughter is practicing as much of what Brown proposes as she can. It is difficult to understand where people think how the stuff if life can be created without organic soil creation.
I’m back. Here’s a video by Chris Hedges himself who did this interview over 5 years ago which is still available for free on YouTube. It is an interview with the makers of Cowspiracy that focuses on the refusal of environmental groups to deal with the impact on climate with large scale animal agriculture. At least one of the producers is in favor of regenerative agriculture as well, only plant based. Please watch: https://YouTube.be/ynWHUmRzNBA
I choose not to debate people who refuse to answer my reasonable questions, like: Why is your food more humane or more ecological than mine?
I can’t prove I’ll watch it but I will today.With all respect to you I’m not here to keep an argument going, I know the water usage alone to raise flesh from living creatures is greater than what is necessary to grow grain, and eliminates the need to kill and confine animals. Would the health science alone on veganism alone not make you consider there is some correlation between the health of ecosystems? My opinion is we should spay and neuter all the domesticated animals consumed and give most of the land back to the Buffalo, maybe work with Native tribes, even if they kill and consume Buffalo similar to their old ways.
Properly raised, grazing animals restore water cycles. Therefore they do not “use” water that they do not replace.
No matter what you say, I’m going to continue to ask the world to go vegan and show mercy to the animals as much as possible. I forgot to mention that according to some studies, veganism is the fastest growing peace movement in the world.U.S. vegans currently are around 10% of the population according to Veganoutreach.org. I don’t know exactly who they got to do the research but you are welcome to ask them. Thank you again for your contributions to the world but I think it’s best to end the conversation here as I wish to avoid any resentment by defending what I stand for. Have a good day.
Ok thanks Kelly, I will find Cowspiracy. Tim
Check out my comment showing the link to Chris Hedges’ broadcast with the makers of Cowspiracy over 5 years ago. As of today at least, it’s still available for free on YouTube.
The entire Cowspiracy movie is on YouTube for free if that helps.Correction: the free documentary is Cowspiracy: the sustainability secret. The movie itself is available for a cost.