Listen now | On October 7 Hamas fighters broke through the security barrier separating Gaza from Israel. They attacked army outposts, villages, an outdoor concert venue and Kibutzim. Some 1,300 Israelis, many of them civilians, were killed. Some 150 Israelis, in cluding women, children and the elderly, were taken as hostages and transported back to Gaza. Israel says 1,500 Hamas militants, most young men who most likely had never been out Gaza, were killed. Israel has ordered some 1.1 million Palestinians in northern Gaza to evacuate. The north includes Gaza City, the most densely populated part of the strip, with 750,000 residents. It also includes Gaza’s main hospital and the Jabalia and al-Shati refugee camps. Gaza is one of the most heavily populated spots on the planet with 2.3 million people. Its borders are sealed by Egypt and Israel. There is no sanctuary with a tiny land mass 25 miles long and only about 5 files wide. Israel has cut off food, fuel, water and electricity, provoking an appalling humanitarian crisis. Joining me to discuss the crisis in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories is the Middle East scholar Norman Finkelstein. Norman has written numerous books on the Middle East including “Gaza: an Inquest into its Martyrdom.”
Israel wants genocide. A lot of cowardly people claiming to be liberals and others will not admit it, but they too are happy with that result.
I lived, reluctantly, on a kibbutz just after the six day war. Like Hedges and Finklestein I experienced the racism of the Israelis first hand. I listened as a soldier showed off his Uzi a told my small group with a little laugh, that if you line them up just right you can kill two Arabs with one shot. His female partner laughed too. Having come from the land of the Klan, and George Wallace, I recognized the mentality. Like the Civil Rights movement, this conflict will have to be resolved first from the outside.
That loving hug that Biden gave Not an yahoo this morning is not a good sign.
Let's continue to tell our stories and speak the truth...........I believe the tide is turning and the turn isn't for Israel. What a mess we westerners gave our brothers and sisters in the middle east...after we looked the other way while Hitler did what he did.
A lot of American conservatives who were expressing doubt with the American war machine are back to full-bore neocon sociopathy, like a dog returneth to its vomit.
As for American liberals, the less said, the better.
As to your Liberals, I'd disagree. Time has come to confront them. The rabid right is rising all over the planet because so called 'liberals' appear to be gutless when it comes right down to it. There have to be ways that everyone who can see the atrocity happening in slow motion, finds a way to speak. Silence is Complicity.....but sometimes also, it is the passive way to Damnation. I'm not being metaphysical here....I'm remembering what happened in Germany...thinking of all those cowardly good people who had to stay silent, once Hitler had all the power.
Up here in Canada, I've just sent a letter to my leader telling him if he doesn't speak up soon....my substantial pac is leaving the party and going to a Palestinian defense fund. Let's stop thinking we're too good to issue threats....or two lazy to act on them.
A Terrible Forgetting. As Norman Finkelstein has asked, "What happened after the other 'military operations' of Israel ? Nothing. This, of course, is why these bloodbaths have repeated with nauseating predictability. The hardest pill to swallow is this : The Palestinians, in Gaza and all occupied territories, will continue suffering and dying; with no hope for freedom from the shackles of Israel and The United States and the West. I agree that the outside world needs to change as a perquisite to the shackles being broken. But, for now, hopeless young men will continue fighting back. For what other purpose do they have ?
It occurs to me that the Middle East and the beloved Q'uran with its laws against usury might have something to do with western powers and the rabid attacks on that continent in an effort to bend it to the power of Central Banks that enslave the people and rob them of the wealth of their resources.
It's a thought for sure.....we got rid of Christianities ambivalence about money lending centuries ago...Heke....we like everything to grow exponentially.
Except social justice of course. There has to be limits set somewhere...lol
With so much misinformation about Israel and their complicity when it comes to their mistreatment of Palestinians for decades, thank you both for being voices we can actually trust.
An extraordinary interviewee and interview. Genuine, earnest, full of integrity, smart, knowledgeable, articulate, and mature. Mature enough to be able to be open with his own feelings without foisting them on others. Finkelstein is a man who comes closer to fitting the description of one possessing impeccability than I’ve ever encountered before. Hearty thank you for providing such a meaningful moment with such a good man.
I am very impressed by Norman Finkelstein's serious attempt to find a personal moral position on the action by Hamas. He talks about moral immersion being necessary and his immersion was to try to a comparable historical circumstance from which to make his judgement -- how abolitionist thinkers morally assessed the actions of Nat Turner and John Brown. In doing this, Norman Finkelstein employs a casuistic form of moral reasoning.
He looks back at the American history of slavery and how abolitionists regarded the slave revolts. With this comparison, he is able to make moral sense of the Hamas attack.
Norman Finkelstein is a rare mind, capable of establishing facts, but also earnest in his attempt to find a moral perspective on those facts.
One may disagree with his position, but one knows what to disagree with. He has made his case with profound integrity and knowledge.
Like Chomsky, Finkelstein is a deeply moral scholar. This iteration of the serial genocide committed by Israel (with equal damnation on my own country, the US), should cause any decent human being to deeply question their own morality--to check in with themselves, as it were. Americans are long overdue for a collective soul-search. Finkelstein's research journey to Nat Turner's rebellion, and the quandary it posed to WL Garrison and other abolitionists was a brilliant way of seeking clarity. Thanks very much for letting him hold forth.
This was a remarkable interview; substantive and informative. This is what we get when one the best American journalists interviews one of our finest scholars. I have a lot of respect for both. I think we should order Norman's books and give it to those who care to read and understand.
This interview made me realize that understanding the context in which an event happens is a prerequisite to understand the event itself. Now I wondered how those who broke out of the concentration camp felt when meeting their jailers, torturers, tormentors, and the European / American settlers who occupy their land and homes.
We have family in Cuba...and yes. AMERICANS are responsible for much of the suffering Cubans are experiencing now. AND FOR THE MAJORITY....IT SEEMS TO BE A NON ISSUE.
For the majority of the third world...roughly80% of the world's population....it looks quite different.
I have learnt a lot in this interview. Glad that Finkelstein made it so clear the need to humanize Palestinians is ways that the left is missing, by a lot. The dire situation of Palestinians have gone for so long, generations lost to hopelessness. It might be hard to hear but even the Palestinians who joined Hamas need to be humanized. Like Finkelstein and Chris put so well, those are young man who cannot find jobs, therefore cannot get married, so they have nothing to look forward to, the only way to fight for the long dreamt liberation is to actually fight. Imagine growing up without enough of anything, except violence from a powerful occupier. Palestinians existence is resistance. Israel cannot stand that.
Such an astute comment, Adriana. I was struck by many things in the podcast, but one of the details about the limiting of food supplies to the Palestinians by Israel to provide nourishment just slightly above the “starvation level” was particularly horrendous to think about. Seemed so nazi-like to me....
Great interview, I'm with norm, from a far less informed and knowledgeable position... But I can't denounce like everyone has, the actions of hammas. If I was born into a concentration camp & fed starvation+ rations, I would of busted thru that fence with anger and hatred in my heart, and to see my oppressors enjoying a beautiful life at a music festival, I likely would of lost it too. It's like when I step back from my whiteness and think about how black people sometimes feel about white people in America, I understand I would in fact feel that same way. Angry. I don't think you have to denounce their actions, especially if you don't take the time to do the math on what led up to oct 7th. He's brave and I appreciate Norms depth and intellect. I had never heard of him until he started making the rounds recently, but he has no doubt educated myself and I'm sure many more on the lengthy horrible plight leading up to & then worsening after Oct 7th
More than moving. The most powerful, gut wrenching and humane account. Two men who are exemplars of intellect, integrity, humanity and profound wisdom. In my imagination I wander back to days when newsreels propagandised the public, and imagine a world if this was what was played.
A informative, emotionally moving interview about what is happening in Gaza. One of the best interviews I have ever heard. Thank you Chris Hedges and Norman Finkelstein!
Thank you, Chris and Norman. A truly wonderful podcast. I shared it to LFAA today. A different point of view is so needed to think about this crisis and its long history. Norman’s comment was so instructive that the Holocaust lasted six years and the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank began in 1947 until today. Such terrible suffering....
I have been thru a lot over 4 years, but when I read of the horrible humanitarian crisis that is the everyday lives of the Palestinians and so many other groups of people across the world presently and historically, it's gives me a great sadness & pause... A pause that makes me grateful for the simple things many of us take for granted food heat water... A roof that isn't in danger of a missile coming thru it at anytime. While everyone is out to condemn hammas how can you, at a bear minimum at least be very honest with yourself and others of how you would feel breaking out and seeing how people are living just right on the other side of that fence.
Israel wants genocide. A lot of cowardly people claiming to be liberals and others will not admit it, but they too are happy with that result.
I lived, reluctantly, on a kibbutz just after the six day war. Like Hedges and Finklestein I experienced the racism of the Israelis first hand. I listened as a soldier showed off his Uzi a told my small group with a little laugh, that if you line them up just right you can kill two Arabs with one shot. His female partner laughed too. Having come from the land of the Klan, and George Wallace, I recognized the mentality. Like the Civil Rights movement, this conflict will have to be resolved first from the outside.
That loving hug that Biden gave Not an yahoo this morning is not a good sign.
Let's continue to tell our stories and speak the truth...........I believe the tide is turning and the turn isn't for Israel. What a mess we westerners gave our brothers and sisters in the middle east...after we looked the other way while Hitler did what he did.
A lot of American conservatives who were expressing doubt with the American war machine are back to full-bore neocon sociopathy, like a dog returneth to its vomit.
As for American liberals, the less said, the better.
As to your Liberals, I'd disagree. Time has come to confront them. The rabid right is rising all over the planet because so called 'liberals' appear to be gutless when it comes right down to it. There have to be ways that everyone who can see the atrocity happening in slow motion, finds a way to speak. Silence is Complicity.....but sometimes also, it is the passive way to Damnation. I'm not being metaphysical here....I'm remembering what happened in Germany...thinking of all those cowardly good people who had to stay silent, once Hitler had all the power.
Up here in Canada, I've just sent a letter to my leader telling him if he doesn't speak up soon....my substantial pac is leaving the party and going to a Palestinian defense fund. Let's stop thinking we're too good to issue threats....or two lazy to act on them.
The liberals aren't just silent weaktea wimps but active participants.
A Terrible Forgetting. As Norman Finkelstein has asked, "What happened after the other 'military operations' of Israel ? Nothing. This, of course, is why these bloodbaths have repeated with nauseating predictability. The hardest pill to swallow is this : The Palestinians, in Gaza and all occupied territories, will continue suffering and dying; with no hope for freedom from the shackles of Israel and The United States and the West. I agree that the outside world needs to change as a perquisite to the shackles being broken. But, for now, hopeless young men will continue fighting back. For what other purpose do they have ?
We\ve been looking away from a slow motion genocide for as long as I can remember. THE SHAME OF IT, if nothing else, SHOULD MOVE US TO ACT.
It occurs to me that the Middle East and the beloved Q'uran with its laws against usury might have something to do with western powers and the rabid attacks on that continent in an effort to bend it to the power of Central Banks that enslave the people and rob them of the wealth of their resources.
It's a thought for sure.....we got rid of Christianities ambivalence about money lending centuries ago...Heke....we like everything to grow exponentially.
Except social justice of course. There has to be limits set somewhere...lol
With so much misinformation about Israel and their complicity when it comes to their mistreatment of Palestinians for decades, thank you both for being voices we can actually trust.
An extraordinary interviewee and interview. Genuine, earnest, full of integrity, smart, knowledgeable, articulate, and mature. Mature enough to be able to be open with his own feelings without foisting them on others. Finkelstein is a man who comes closer to fitting the description of one possessing impeccability than I’ve ever encountered before. Hearty thank you for providing such a meaningful moment with such a good man.
I am very impressed by Norman Finkelstein's serious attempt to find a personal moral position on the action by Hamas. He talks about moral immersion being necessary and his immersion was to try to a comparable historical circumstance from which to make his judgement -- how abolitionist thinkers morally assessed the actions of Nat Turner and John Brown. In doing this, Norman Finkelstein employs a casuistic form of moral reasoning.
He looks back at the American history of slavery and how abolitionists regarded the slave revolts. With this comparison, he is able to make moral sense of the Hamas attack.
Norman Finkelstein is a rare mind, capable of establishing facts, but also earnest in his attempt to find a moral perspective on those facts.
One may disagree with his position, but one knows what to disagree with. He has made his case with profound integrity and knowledge.
Like Chomsky, Finkelstein is a deeply moral scholar. This iteration of the serial genocide committed by Israel (with equal damnation on my own country, the US), should cause any decent human being to deeply question their own morality--to check in with themselves, as it were. Americans are long overdue for a collective soul-search. Finkelstein's research journey to Nat Turner's rebellion, and the quandary it posed to WL Garrison and other abolitionists was a brilliant way of seeking clarity. Thanks very much for letting him hold forth.
This was a remarkable interview; substantive and informative. This is what we get when one the best American journalists interviews one of our finest scholars. I have a lot of respect for both. I think we should order Norman's books and give it to those who care to read and understand.
This interview made me realize that understanding the context in which an event happens is a prerequisite to understand the event itself. Now I wondered how those who broke out of the concentration camp felt when meeting their jailers, torturers, tormentors, and the European / American settlers who occupy their land and homes.
Hillary said 'the blockade is untenable, it has to end?! Jeez, that's a bit rich.
Dare I mention Cuba? That's been going on just as long.
We have family in Cuba...and yes. AMERICANS are responsible for much of the suffering Cubans are experiencing now. AND FOR THE MAJORITY....IT SEEMS TO BE A NON ISSUE.
For the majority of the third world...roughly80% of the world's population....it looks quite different.
They see Us...I'm thinking.
I have learnt a lot in this interview. Glad that Finkelstein made it so clear the need to humanize Palestinians is ways that the left is missing, by a lot. The dire situation of Palestinians have gone for so long, generations lost to hopelessness. It might be hard to hear but even the Palestinians who joined Hamas need to be humanized. Like Finkelstein and Chris put so well, those are young man who cannot find jobs, therefore cannot get married, so they have nothing to look forward to, the only way to fight for the long dreamt liberation is to actually fight. Imagine growing up without enough of anything, except violence from a powerful occupier. Palestinians existence is resistance. Israel cannot stand that.
Such an astute comment, Adriana. I was struck by many things in the podcast, but one of the details about the limiting of food supplies to the Palestinians by Israel to provide nourishment just slightly above the “starvation level” was particularly horrendous to think about. Seemed so nazi-like to me....
It a great honor to watch that two of you. Wish you both a long prosperous life and that you continue to speak truth to power!
I love that intro outro and terrorized song!
Great interview, I'm with norm, from a far less informed and knowledgeable position... But I can't denounce like everyone has, the actions of hammas. If I was born into a concentration camp & fed starvation+ rations, I would of busted thru that fence with anger and hatred in my heart, and to see my oppressors enjoying a beautiful life at a music festival, I likely would of lost it too. It's like when I step back from my whiteness and think about how black people sometimes feel about white people in America, I understand I would in fact feel that same way. Angry. I don't think you have to denounce their actions, especially if you don't take the time to do the math on what led up to oct 7th. He's brave and I appreciate Norms depth and intellect. I had never heard of him until he started making the rounds recently, but he has no doubt educated myself and I'm sure many more on the lengthy horrible plight leading up to & then worsening after Oct 7th
More than moving. The most powerful, gut wrenching and humane account. Two men who are exemplars of intellect, integrity, humanity and profound wisdom. In my imagination I wander back to days when newsreels propagandised the public, and imagine a world if this was what was played.
Dr. Finkelstein, welcome back.
A informative, emotionally moving interview about what is happening in Gaza. One of the best interviews I have ever heard. Thank you Chris Hedges and Norman Finkelstein!
Thank you, Chris and Norman. A truly wonderful podcast. I shared it to LFAA today. A different point of view is so needed to think about this crisis and its long history. Norman’s comment was so instructive that the Holocaust lasted six years and the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank began in 1947 until today. Such terrible suffering....
I have been thru a lot over 4 years, but when I read of the horrible humanitarian crisis that is the everyday lives of the Palestinians and so many other groups of people across the world presently and historically, it's gives me a great sadness & pause... A pause that makes me grateful for the simple things many of us take for granted food heat water... A roof that isn't in danger of a missile coming thru it at anytime. While everyone is out to condemn hammas how can you, at a bear minimum at least be very honest with yourself and others of how you would feel breaking out and seeing how people are living just right on the other side of that fence.
Brilliant. Thank you for having Norman Finkelstein speak. There is no one who knows more about Gaza, except for Sara Roy of Harvard University.