I loved the insights about the racist nature of the enlightenment in the west. "the Enlightenment was always an exclusionary project . . .America's founding fathers have this great document or documents with basically establishing the liberal order here and also have slavery and genocide at the same time". It almost presages what the US government has foisted upon us, its citizens, these past two years: bellowing about liberal democracy while committing a genocide pretty much against the popular will. And toward the end of the interview, Joe sews those thoughts up with "democracies commit atrocities". Amen.
This country has always been riddled with prejudice. Rarely is it brought up that people from the the European south and the east were considered as being inferior even to blacks. They had to work their way toward whiteness. Who fought in WWI, Europeans from the west, or north? No! Blacks and Europeans from the east and south fought that war. some relatives walking through neighborhoods, not Italian, and in the city had glass bottles thrown at them that would hit the side walk, break and spit glass into their legs and arms. Nothing really surprises me about the US in regard to prejudice toward one group or another.
I grew up in an immigrant/1st-gen Italian-American community in NYC, so yes I know of what you speak. Prejudice is a national pastime from the puritans on down through the generations of this empire's brief existence.
I wish more people had an understanding of that. Of course down south it was worse and lynching was not all that uncommon when it came to Italians. There's a short video of the 11 Italians killed down south which is interesting. The 1891 lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in New Orleans
Thanks for that link, and I think I would like to continue to hear what she has to say. As far as Columbus, yeah keep the holiday, but personally I don't like the guy.
"I just imagine that all my money is funneled into a small part of a bomb that causes someone to lose their life in Gaza.”
Is devastating to my soul. A crime so terrible, yet one I am powerless to stop from happening again and again. The darkness seeps in. I stare at the photo's of the faces of the grieving ones whose pain has no boundaries. I ache in shared guilt.
They say that the Israeli public basically is indifferent to the genocide that their government is implementing whereas the majority of people in the US are against it.
“the Israeli public basically is indifferent to the genocide that their government is implementing”
The Israeli cabinet isn’t flying planes or driving tanks. It’s the Israeli pilots and army grunts. Most of the Israeli public aren’t indifferent to the genocide, they’re actively supporting it.
I grew up in Memphis, born in 1955. We were very fortunate to have a Palestinian family living just four doors down from us. I believe the father got out during Nakba. They attended the same Catholic Church as my family, and sent their children to the same Catholic Schools my siblings and I attended. So we knew these people very well.
The Palestinians are WONDERFUL people, kind, compassionate, generous with whatever they had. Great senses of humor, and apparently gave great parties (my parents went to the adult parties, we just heard the stories). Really all-around good people to know. My younger siblings and I were raised staunchly Pro-Palestinian.
Watching this genocide makes me physically ill. Knowing how lovely the Palestinians are and seeing the heinous slaughter of thousands of innocent people feels unbearable. I knew on Oct. 8th that a genocide was afoot just watching those 2000 lb bombs leveling huge apartment buildings. No matter what happens, they keep going, they are very strong people. And very accomplished; those museums that Israel leveled were filled with wonderful art, poetry, antiquities.
I'm an atheist, but I have a feeling that if anyone would be "chosen people" it would be the Palestinians, NOT the Zionists, who have ALWAYS been very cruel people. When the War
on Gaza started I was constantly checking the news, hoping for some good news for their plight. Everyday, I tried to figure out how I could possibly help. If some country did something nice, I tracked down whoever it was in whatever country they lived in and emailed them to thank them. When all the countries defunded UNWRA, I sent emails to the heads of those countries, and told them I would never travel to those countries, nor would I ever again purchase anything from those countries. I wanted them to know that many of us ARE paying attention to their actions. I emailed Genocide Joe almost every day to give him shit. I don't know what else I can do, and I am heartsick.
Here's something you should all know about GJoe- he's ALWAYS hated the Palestinians. A friend worked on the Hill as a Secretary for a few years in the 70's, she unfortunately could overhear him continually calling the Palestinians "Sand N-". He laughed about them and put them down every chance he got, many people witnessed this numerous times, right in the offices, and many were appalled.
Thanks for this comment, Lily. I enjoyed reading about your early experience with the Palestinian family down the street. When we share space and listen to each other's stories, (best over a meal together) our misconceptions (if we have any) will begin to dissolve as we begin to realize our shared humanity - "these people are just like us." I'm a year older than you and experienced the small minded racism and hatred that divide us in my early years. I saw it displayed toward anyone that was dark skinned or that spoke a language other than English. As I grew up, the prejudices society demonstrated and expected me to copy began to vanish. I could see with my own eyes how untrue and cruel such small minded behaviors are that cause real people great harm and trauma. This ongoing genocide is making me ill too Lily, it's making all of us ill. Do your best to not allow your heart to harden . . . I'm working on that too. Be well.
It's been said by philosophers and by writers of the Lost Generation that the Enlightenment died in the trenches of WWI. It's just taken a century longer to see in the U.S. because "we" won WWII (or so we were taught.) In addition, capitalism is the greatest econ system ever and synonymous with freedom (or so we were propagandized.) That's why "we" won the Cold War. So then fighting for capitalism = fighting for democracy.
STEM majors are fine because they fit the dominant way of thinking. A way that must be seen for what it is and more importantly, for what it isn't, in order to enable recovery. What it isn't is why the humanities, ways by which we become fully human, are threatened with extinction.
Iain McGilchrist has been writing and speaking about this for a decade; see his 2021 two vol. magnum opus //The Matter with Things (Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World)//. The left hemisphere has been dominant since the Enlightenment. It processes through abstraction and quantification. It needs certainty and control. It is also overoptimistic--like the Dunning-Kruger effect. For sure L modes are characteristic of neolibs and neocons. The right hemisphere is characteristic of the arts, the humanities. It's about possibility, the implicit, the contextual, the unique, gestalt, metaphor, and meaning. The RH understands the LH, but the reverse is not so.
This is not merely some generalized spiritual crap. It's also what quantum physicists have been trying to tell us for a hundred years. Now consider why the western world is in the situation it is in. McGilchrist also warns us that we cannot deal with problems by using the same methods that got us into them.
-The discussion regarding the unquestioned and generally uncommented upon de facto abrogation of international laws, the decisions of the powerless international courts disregarded, and immediately forgotten. The crimes against humanity, the genocide "on open display" as Joe Sacco put it, casually accepted by the world powers, certainly in the West. Corruption, lying and the right of might accepted. And the implicit question, where are we now? In so many ways, entering unknown territory.
And this leading into the related question of where does this put our "civilization".
What does it say about our "civilization", the future playing out in the face of the almost certainly inevitable climate, social and economic catastrophe.
Disorder and conflict, leading into an unprecedented and perilous time in human history, with a culture in which standards of morality and rules-based order are already largely absent - not an auspicious situation, regardless of the limits and hypocrisies already shown in the Enlightenment tradition as discussed here.
All cultures and societies are a mixture. At a certain point a change in matter of degree becomes a change in kind. What was a part becomes effectively the whole. In our case, it seems to be the worst parts. What comes following the seemingly complete abandonment of the tenets of moral society, which doesn't even pay lip service to the values that it formerly held, at least in part?
To the work of John Grey on this line of thought could be added that of John Ralston Saul. (The thought triggered by the fact that a copy of Voltaire's Bastards was spotted in the background.)
Joe Sacco's reflections on his mother made me think of my own. I grew up in a home where my mother was a rather devout anti-Zionist and I thought maybe she was identifying with the Palestinians because like them she didn't really have a home of her own either, since she grew up in an orphanage. Thanks for that.
“And so oppression abroad and repression at home orbit each other in an ever tightening circle and will achieve singularity when the last self hating Jewish student is strangled with the entrails of the last child in Gaza.” Thank you, Mr. Sacco, this simile is worth 10,000 drawings.
An uneducated, unaccountable democracy is inevitable, ( see the USA). To govern is not to give the people what they want. The wisest among us who desire to do no harm are thought foolish and naive, weak and even dangerous. Who shall lead us? Give us Barabbas! This world shares one soul, shielded only by love. This knowledge is blanketed in those who desire more. Our leaders tell us we deserve more and that they know how to get it to us. So, who do we allow to teach us?
I loved the insights about the racist nature of the enlightenment in the west. "the Enlightenment was always an exclusionary project . . .America's founding fathers have this great document or documents with basically establishing the liberal order here and also have slavery and genocide at the same time". It almost presages what the US government has foisted upon us, its citizens, these past two years: bellowing about liberal democracy while committing a genocide pretty much against the popular will. And toward the end of the interview, Joe sews those thoughts up with "democracies commit atrocities". Amen.
This country has always been riddled with prejudice. Rarely is it brought up that people from the the European south and the east were considered as being inferior even to blacks. They had to work their way toward whiteness. Who fought in WWI, Europeans from the west, or north? No! Blacks and Europeans from the east and south fought that war. some relatives walking through neighborhoods, not Italian, and in the city had glass bottles thrown at them that would hit the side walk, break and spit glass into their legs and arms. Nothing really surprises me about the US in regard to prejudice toward one group or another.
I grew up in an immigrant/1st-gen Italian-American community in NYC, so yes I know of what you speak. Prejudice is a national pastime from the puritans on down through the generations of this empire's brief existence.
I wish more people had an understanding of that. Of course down south it was worse and lynching was not all that uncommon when it came to Italians. There's a short video of the 11 Italians killed down south which is interesting. The 1891 lynching of 11 Italian-Americans in New Orleans
I vaguely recall the history from Zinn's People's History but haven't seen the video. Found a real short one at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y-Dji6Mx_U.
Thanks for the reminder of how brutal it can be, how desperately more kindness is needed in this society.
A People’s History of the United States: 1492 – Present Howard Zinn, a great book!
If only we used it as a standard HS text; Americans might not be so delusional.
Thanks for that link, and I think I would like to continue to hear what she has to say. As far as Columbus, yeah keep the holiday, but personally I don't like the guy.
Extraordinary show. Joe expresses so beautifully and touchingly the suffering and frustration we share. Thank you for this.
The last line of the introduction,
"I just imagine that all my money is funneled into a small part of a bomb that causes someone to lose their life in Gaza.”
Is devastating to my soul. A crime so terrible, yet one I am powerless to stop from happening again and again. The darkness seeps in. I stare at the photo's of the faces of the grieving ones whose pain has no boundaries. I ache in shared guilt.
They say that the Israeli public basically is indifferent to the genocide that their government is implementing whereas the majority of people in the US are against it.
“the Israeli public basically is indifferent to the genocide that their government is implementing”
The Israeli cabinet isn’t flying planes or driving tanks. It’s the Israeli pilots and army grunts. Most of the Israeli public aren’t indifferent to the genocide, they’re actively supporting it.
True, Indifference may have the same affect, but supporting it is indeed worse.
I grew up in Memphis, born in 1955. We were very fortunate to have a Palestinian family living just four doors down from us. I believe the father got out during Nakba. They attended the same Catholic Church as my family, and sent their children to the same Catholic Schools my siblings and I attended. So we knew these people very well.
The Palestinians are WONDERFUL people, kind, compassionate, generous with whatever they had. Great senses of humor, and apparently gave great parties (my parents went to the adult parties, we just heard the stories). Really all-around good people to know. My younger siblings and I were raised staunchly Pro-Palestinian.
Watching this genocide makes me physically ill. Knowing how lovely the Palestinians are and seeing the heinous slaughter of thousands of innocent people feels unbearable. I knew on Oct. 8th that a genocide was afoot just watching those 2000 lb bombs leveling huge apartment buildings. No matter what happens, they keep going, they are very strong people. And very accomplished; those museums that Israel leveled were filled with wonderful art, poetry, antiquities.
I'm an atheist, but I have a feeling that if anyone would be "chosen people" it would be the Palestinians, NOT the Zionists, who have ALWAYS been very cruel people. When the War
on Gaza started I was constantly checking the news, hoping for some good news for their plight. Everyday, I tried to figure out how I could possibly help. If some country did something nice, I tracked down whoever it was in whatever country they lived in and emailed them to thank them. When all the countries defunded UNWRA, I sent emails to the heads of those countries, and told them I would never travel to those countries, nor would I ever again purchase anything from those countries. I wanted them to know that many of us ARE paying attention to their actions. I emailed Genocide Joe almost every day to give him shit. I don't know what else I can do, and I am heartsick.
Here's something you should all know about GJoe- he's ALWAYS hated the Palestinians. A friend worked on the Hill as a Secretary for a few years in the 70's, she unfortunately could overhear him continually calling the Palestinians "Sand N-". He laughed about them and put them down every chance he got, many people witnessed this numerous times, right in the offices, and many were appalled.
Thanks for this comment, Lily. I enjoyed reading about your early experience with the Palestinian family down the street. When we share space and listen to each other's stories, (best over a meal together) our misconceptions (if we have any) will begin to dissolve as we begin to realize our shared humanity - "these people are just like us." I'm a year older than you and experienced the small minded racism and hatred that divide us in my early years. I saw it displayed toward anyone that was dark skinned or that spoke a language other than English. As I grew up, the prejudices society demonstrated and expected me to copy began to vanish. I could see with my own eyes how untrue and cruel such small minded behaviors are that cause real people great harm and trauma. This ongoing genocide is making me ill too Lily, it's making all of us ill. Do your best to not allow your heart to harden . . . I'm working on that too. Be well.
It's been said by philosophers and by writers of the Lost Generation that the Enlightenment died in the trenches of WWI. It's just taken a century longer to see in the U.S. because "we" won WWII (or so we were taught.) In addition, capitalism is the greatest econ system ever and synonymous with freedom (or so we were propagandized.) That's why "we" won the Cold War. So then fighting for capitalism = fighting for democracy.
STEM majors are fine because they fit the dominant way of thinking. A way that must be seen for what it is and more importantly, for what it isn't, in order to enable recovery. What it isn't is why the humanities, ways by which we become fully human, are threatened with extinction.
Iain McGilchrist has been writing and speaking about this for a decade; see his 2021 two vol. magnum opus //The Matter with Things (Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World)//. The left hemisphere has been dominant since the Enlightenment. It processes through abstraction and quantification. It needs certainty and control. It is also overoptimistic--like the Dunning-Kruger effect. For sure L modes are characteristic of neolibs and neocons. The right hemisphere is characteristic of the arts, the humanities. It's about possibility, the implicit, the contextual, the unique, gestalt, metaphor, and meaning. The RH understands the LH, but the reverse is not so.
This is not merely some generalized spiritual crap. It's also what quantum physicists have been trying to tell us for a hundred years. Now consider why the western world is in the situation it is in. McGilchrist also warns us that we cannot deal with problems by using the same methods that got us into them.
Thank you again.
Particularly appreciated:
-The discussion regarding the unquestioned and generally uncommented upon de facto abrogation of international laws, the decisions of the powerless international courts disregarded, and immediately forgotten. The crimes against humanity, the genocide "on open display" as Joe Sacco put it, casually accepted by the world powers, certainly in the West. Corruption, lying and the right of might accepted. And the implicit question, where are we now? In so many ways, entering unknown territory.
And this leading into the related question of where does this put our "civilization".
What does it say about our "civilization", the future playing out in the face of the almost certainly inevitable climate, social and economic catastrophe.
Disorder and conflict, leading into an unprecedented and perilous time in human history, with a culture in which standards of morality and rules-based order are already largely absent - not an auspicious situation, regardless of the limits and hypocrisies already shown in the Enlightenment tradition as discussed here.
All cultures and societies are a mixture. At a certain point a change in matter of degree becomes a change in kind. What was a part becomes effectively the whole. In our case, it seems to be the worst parts. What comes following the seemingly complete abandonment of the tenets of moral society, which doesn't even pay lip service to the values that it formerly held, at least in part?
To the work of John Grey on this line of thought could be added that of John Ralston Saul. (The thought triggered by the fact that a copy of Voltaire's Bastards was spotted in the background.)
Joe Sacco's reflections on his mother made me think of my own. I grew up in a home where my mother was a rather devout anti-Zionist and I thought maybe she was identifying with the Palestinians because like them she didn't really have a home of her own either, since she grew up in an orphanage. Thanks for that.
Thanks to Joe Sacco and Chris Hedges for this enlightening discussion.
Excellent appreciation of Joe Sacco’s excellent work!
“And so oppression abroad and repression at home orbit each other in an ever tightening circle and will achieve singularity when the last self hating Jewish student is strangled with the entrails of the last child in Gaza.” Thank you, Mr. Sacco, this simile is worth 10,000 drawings.
An uneducated, unaccountable democracy is inevitable, ( see the USA). To govern is not to give the people what they want. The wisest among us who desire to do no harm are thought foolish and naive, weak and even dangerous. Who shall lead us? Give us Barabbas! This world shares one soul, shielded only by love. This knowledge is blanketed in those who desire more. Our leaders tell us we deserve more and that they know how to get it to us. So, who do we allow to teach us?
Thank you Chris and Joe.