Perhaps you should have asked her how Christian is it to dismiss a long term friend because she doesn't believe in genocide, and how Christian is it to condone it? As they say Linda with friends like that you don't need enemies.
A "Christian Fascist" is not a formally defined term in political or religious scholarship but is generally understood as a pejorative or analytical label combining elements of Christianity with fascist ideology. Fascism, historically, is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology characterized by a dictatorial leader, suppression of opposition, nationalism, and the curtailment of individual freedoms. When paired with "Christian," it typically implies a worldview that merges Christian religious identity or values with these authoritarian and nationalist tendencies, often emphasizing a theocratic or exclusionary social order.
In contemporary discourse, the term might be used to describe individuals or groups who advocate for a strong, centralized government led by a figure they view as divinely ordained, while promoting policies that align with a conservative Christian agenda (e.g., opposition to abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, or secularism) alongside nationalist or anti-immigrant rhetoric. Critics might apply this label to certain Trump supporters who blend evangelical fervor with his "Make America Great Again" ethos, interpreting his leadership as a defense of a "Christian America" against perceived threats. However, the term is subjective and contentious, lacking a universal definition, and its application depends heavily on the perspective of the observer.
### How Many Christian Fascists Voted for Trump in 2024?
There is no direct data quantifying "Christian Fascists" who voted for Donald Trump in the 2024 presidential election because this is not a self-identified category tracked by exit polls or surveys. However, we can estimate based on broader data about Christian voters and their support for Trump, with the understanding that only a subset might fit the "Christian Fascist" description depending on how one defines it.
1. **Trump's Total Votes in 2024**: According to available data as of March 10, 2025, Donald Trump won approximately 77 million votes in the 2024 election, securing 312 Electoral College votes and 50.1% of the popular vote.
2. **Christian Voter Support**: Exit polls and post-election analyses indicate that Christians, particularly white evangelicals and other conservative Christian groups, were a significant part of Trump’s base:
- **Protestant/Other Christian Voters**: 63% of these voters (excluding Catholics) supported Trump, up from 60% in 2020, per network exit polls.
- **White Evangelical/Born-Again Christians**: 82% of this group voted for Trump, a strong showing consistent with prior elections.
- **Catholics**: 56% supported Trump, a 9-point increase from 47% in 2020, per The Washington Post exit polls.
- A report from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University found that 56% of self-identified Christians overall voted for Trump.
3. **Estimating Christian Votes**: With 155 million total votes cast in 2024, and assuming Christians (Protestants, evangelicals, Catholics, etc.) make up roughly 60-70% of the electorate (a reasonable estimate based on historical voting patterns and demographic data), approximately 93-108 million voters could be broadly categorized as Christian. If 56-63% of these voted for Trump (averaging data from various sources), that translates to roughly **52-68 million Christian votes** for Trump.
4. **Narrowing to "Christian Fascists"**: The subset of these voters who could be labeled "Christian Fascists" is harder to pin down without specific polling on authoritarian or nationalist attitudes tied to Christian identity. However:
- Groups like "Spiritually Active Governance Engaged Conservative Christians" (SAGE Cons), who exhibit strong conservative ideology and high political engagement, supported Trump at 90% and had a 99% turnout rate. This group, though small (likely a few million nationwide), might align closely with the "Christian Fascist" label due to their intense ideological commitment.
- White evangelicals, numbering around 20-25% of the electorate (31-39 million voters), voted overwhelmingly for Trump (82%), or roughly 25-32 million votes. Some within this bloc—particularly those who view Trump as a divinely chosen leader or support authoritarian measures—might fit the description, but this is a subjective judgment.
5. **Rough Estimate**: If we assume that "Christian Fascists" are a fraction of Trump’s Christian base—say, those with the most extreme nationalist and authoritarian leanings (e.g., SAGE Cons, ardent MAGA evangelicals)—a speculative range might be **5-15 million voters**. This is a broad guess, as it depends on how strictly one defines the term. For instance:
- If 10-20% of Trump’s evangelical voters (2.5-6.4 million) plus a portion of other conservative Christians (e.g., 2-8 million) exhibit these traits, the total could fall in this range.
- No precise data exists to confirm this, as surveys don’t explicitly ask voters if they identify as both Christian and fascist.
Conclusion
A "Christian Fascist" might be understood as a Christian who supports authoritarian governance infused with nationalist and religious zeal, potentially seeing Trump as a protector of a Christian nation. Based on 2024 election data, Trump received 52-68 million votes from self-identified Christians. The number of these who could be called "Christian Fascists" is speculative but might range from 5-15 million, depending on how narrowly or broadly the term is applied. Without targeted polling, this remains an educated approximation rather than a definitive count.
"Fascism has different iterations, but its core attributes are the same."
Of the many historical parallels that have been mentioned here and elsewhere over time, one this week was particularly salient, as expressed in Elon Musk's statement: ""The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy."
Even in the larger context of the interview in which he said it, ("protecting civilization" in what he terms "weaponized empathy" - somehow implying they are righting some previously perpetuated wrong) the fundamental message is that those who are seen as inferior deserve to simply be eliminated from society. The actions of DOGE and Trump administration overall are targeting certain social groups.
In National Socialism, the sexual minorities, the handicapped, mentally and psychologically, were the first subjects of elimination. The wealth and benefits of society belong to a select group.
A matter of a difference of degree, but the pattern, and impulse behind it, is the same.
I always think people should determine, or interpret what is said, or by the person by reading the article or listening to the interview if possible, rather then listening to another's interpretation of what is said, especially in the age of Trump. I'll read it and reflect on it. As an example I never thought the motivation of democrats in their open door policy had anything to do with their concern for people as they repeatedly stated, but they might in the future constitute a voting block for the democrats. I heard Biden say a number of years ago that if elected he would build the biggest wall ever so that no one, no one, could get in illegally. Maybe that's what Musk means.
I didn't watch the entire interview, but read the portion within which the comment was made, and that is the meaning that I get from that context, and within the general context of the actions of the Trump administration, the policies that they are intent in dismantling.
Speaking of... How about what Musk was wearing during that meeting with Trump? Haven't seen this mentioned, but the form, color, and certain shape cap sure suggested a deliberately Fascist iconography to me. And its approval by plutocrats.
No, I wasn't "just throwing around a word." Nor am I anonymous "people." And my wording was precise--like using 'suggested' and 'iconography.' Look at a photo of that meeting. Do you know what the term "Black Shirt" means?
Replying to Rafi Simonton here: I guess you can consider this a form of a Rohrschach blot. I have to add: I do not have feelings of enmity regarding Steve Bannon. I've agreed with much of what I have read of his views on certain things. I was surprised. Things are never simple.
What I see here is someone trying to regain his former position as advisor to the Leader. The position now being held by someone else who made a similar gesture. Somewhat tentative, testing the waters, but strongly reminiscent of the same probable precedent.
I see it as a visual form of dog whistle. Of course it requires realizing what "Black Shirt" means. Add that to the black and khaki clad participants of the Unite the Right demonstration in Charlottesville.
I also had in mind how Stalin, a former seminary student, deliberately posed himself and his officials so as to evoke Orthodox icons.
Besides, I used precise language--not "is" but "suggested."
For some reason, I didn't think of it at the time of writing the comment.
Elon Musk's sieg heil gesture, seems somewhat in line with the National Socialist parallel, and along with those values. I guess he could wear a swastika and clear up the question as a public service.
Is this a joke or are you serious because this is becoming crazy. It was no heil gesture, but one that implied from my heart I thank you. Or are you kidding?
I don't think that it is necessarily an indication of insanity on the part of either one of us if we disagree on how it appeared to us.
I hope that you are right in your assessment (at least as far as seems in the pattern of your comments) of the nature of the benevolence of the actions of MAGA and the absence of elements of fascism.
It seems clear that we disagree on this point. I think that this question will be answered over the course of time.
I'm not reflexively anti-MAGA, either. Depends on the context. I know all too well from 1st hand experience how the Dems abandoned the majority working class over 40 years ago.
I think the impact these so called Christian and Jewish groups have will solely be used to further the political agenda of Israel and the US. Biden had his neocons, like Blinken, who helped get the genocide on a roll by supplying Israel with bombs, and they were very successful in killing tens of thousands of Palestinians. Prior to that we cleared the playing ground for Israel by implementing our many middle eastern wars carried out by Bush/Cheney and Obama. The Christian right are no more then useful idiots. Not that I feel any empathy for them, I don't, since their so called religious beliefs are nothing less then extremely unchristian in the true sense of the word. P. S. They'll use anyone they can to carry forth this agenda and justify it, which was years in the making.
"I think the impact these so called Christian and Jewish groups have will solely be used to further the political agenda of Israel and the US. Biden had his neocons...The Christian right are no more then useful idiots."
-I think that they are more than this, I think that the influence works both ways, they are useful to the neocons and Zionists, but they are a demographic that is sizable enough (and extremely fervent and intent on establishing policy along the lines of their beliefs) to be a significant political force. Their ideology runs deep in them, however absurd and un-Christian it is doctrinally. Not exactly the tail wagging the dog, but more like some mutated conjoined (and rabid) dog.
They say the Catholics really got out there and voted for Trump, and no doubt other groups as well. Look at Biden's policies, a war in Ukraine that many feared could go nuclear, feeding Israel bombs to kill women and children, and you open your borders, your heart, to anyone who wants to cross our borders illegally, then take them into a welfare system, a country who cannot even take care of their own? Do you vote for a party who supported and implemented this agenda? To me their agenda was nothing but self serving, and during Trump's presidency they were willing to serve you one lie about him after another, and Russia-gate was a big one, They were sitting on their asses during Trump's inaugural speech, and popping up little round posts, like a bunch of stupid kids. Yuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention Pelosi looked like she couldn't get up even if she tried.
I wrote about MAGA and elements of fascism, within the context of the alliance with Christian conservatives and Zionists.
I never said a word about Russia-gate.
You make some big jumps here, lumping things together, Democrat versus Republican, seemingly falling into the usual combination of yoked beliefs that is played out by the political game. I think that the reality of human behavior and belief is much more complicated than the way the binary political party conflict plays out.
Please don't assume to know what my thinking is on these things.
I wish to point out that the majority of Jews in Israel are not descendants of the Twelve Tribes. They are Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, descendants of converts. I am one myself.
Quite right, Julie. That is what Shlomo Sand the Israeli historian and researcher tells in his best seller book "The invented Jewish people" In addition he tells that many of the Sephardi Jews are Berber converts. Here are some excerpts from this book:
"Two questions then immediately came to mind: 1) Where did the many Jewish believers present in Alexandria, Damascus, Rome, Cyprus, Cyrenaica and other regions and cities of the Mediterranean basin came from? 2) What was the fate of the population left in Judea/Palestine after the destruction of its great temple? A careful reading of ancient Roman literature and Jewish writings soon revealed to me an open secret: from the time of the Hasmonaeans, in the second century BCE, Judaism was clearly a proselytizing monotheism that experienced rapid expansion within the Hellenistic world. It was this popularization of Judaism that paved the way for the subsequent arrival of its two younger sisters, Christianity and Islam; their victory put a stop to conversions to Judaism, which at the same time became a dangerous foreigner whose traces they tried to hide. In the fourth century CE, with the victory of Christianity in the Eastern Roman Empire, the indigenous population of Palestine gradually began to change religion, as evidenced by the appearance of churches in Jerusalem and other sites in Judea and Galilee. However, the gap between the fundamental principles of Judaism and those of Christianity was too wide: the notion of the Son of God upset the rabbis. At the time of the Muslim conquest in the seventh century, however, the majority of the population effectively abandoned their old Jewish beliefs and rallied to the new prophet, who did not claim to be the Son of God and, after all, respected the Old Testament. It seems that there was an additional reason for Islamization: during the first phase of conquest, anyone who embraced the cult of Mohammed was exempt from paying taxes. There was therefore not a population replacement but a religious replacement. Does this mean that the direct descendants of the ancient children of Israel are the Palestinians? Not exactly. Successive conquerors all left their seed and their seal on the region, and there are no “pure” populations. Which brings us to the last but not least-important question: Is there a Jewish people like the one I learned about at school in Israel? The use of the concept of “a people” is not particularly scientific, and in fact more adulterated than many others. A Jew from Casablanca could not communicate with a Jew from Kiev; they did not like the same food and would have found the others clothing strange. On the other hand, they could have prayed in the same synagogue, despite differences in the formulation of prayers and liturgical singing. And so when was the “Jewish people,” in the modern sense of the word, invented? The answer is simple: in the second half of the nineteenth century, after the emergence of modern peoples and nations in Western Europe. And if the socialist party of the Bund subsequently applied the term “people” to the large emerging Yiddish population in Eastern Europe, Zionism included Jews from all over the world."
True. I don't know if you have ordered an ancestry genetic test. I did with two different companies and I resulted with ancestry from many countries and cultures. The most puzzled me is 2.6% Neanderthal, 2% Sephardi from Spain and Portugal and 1% Ashkenazi from Ukraine.
Julio, we're probably related, along with everyone else. I never got that test, having read the results were sold. Life is diverse, something to be glad about. "Othering" is nonsense.
"No such thing as a Palestinian." Mike Huckabee said it, I believe it, that settles it. (Wordplay on a fundie bumper sticker: "God said it, I believe it...") Uh-huh.
No problem with the ugly implication of referring to a "thing" and not a person, right?
Well, Mike et al. my old copy of the King James Version, beloved by Protestant conservatives and subsequently by right wing evangelicals, has maps of biblical lands showing a place called Philistia, including a city called Gaza. If you do a search for "Philistines" you'll find some very ancient history confirmed by archeology.
Never mind pesky facts and inconvenient traditional Christian morality if it restores the privileges of white men at least as far back as the 1950s; even better, the 1850s. And resurrects the 19th C. Robber Barons with their descendants as an inherited plutocracy.
"A new poll revealed that Christian voters made a critical difference to help President Donald Trump win the 2024 election.
Trump received a majority of votes from Christians and especially Catholic voters, a study from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University found."
Christians made up 72% of the voters who participated in the election, the study noted. The report also highlighted that Catholics had a record-high turnout, even though overall voter participation, including among Christians, was lower than in 2020.
While voter turnout declined across most Christian subgroups compared to 2020, 70 percent of Catholics reported voting, an increase from 67 percent in 2020. Voters with a “biblical worldview” also showed higher participation, with 67 percent voting in 2024, up from 64 percent in 2020.
The report revealed that 20 percent of Christians considered abortion the most important issue in the election, while inflation (38 percent) and immigration (34 percent) ranked higher in concern.
There is no human condition that is as mercurial and dangerous as a religious fanatic. Really scary stuff. I cannot but fear for my daughters’ future.
In my opinion Starmer’s England count amongst those authoritarian countries. Sadly, this list is not a numerous clausus. So, what is the next step for the fascists? Martial law?
I believe the alliance of the Jewish Zionism with the Christian Zionism is a pact with the devil that eventually the jews will regret. No need to wait for the end of times, just let Trump to take possession of Gaza and see what happens.
Chris and all: I'm reading more about the connections between transnational organized crime networks and authoritarian/fascist governments (eg. Putin, Erdogan, Trump) and am wondering how that impacts the strategy and tactics of our fight to defend and expand democracy both in the US and abroad?
Maybe the MAGA folks will feel enough pain - mass firings, potential cuts in Medicaid, Social Security - to turn on Trump and his sycophant cabinet, and strike.
With all these firings, might the professional class turn to our side and resist? Also, is your hope for grass roots militancy utopic in a similar vein to your critique of Marxism? I still believe in a revolution where we shut down Animal Ag for starters.
Thank you Chris for speaking up against the Christian Right. Years ago
my family moved from upstate NY to
Ohio. I was around 10 or 11 years old. I
soon had a “best” friend named Janet.
Her family was quite wealthy compared to mine. Yet we were friends for years,
and when I left for NYC at 22 we still
stayed in touch. Back around in 2021 or so I got a letter from her saying she
never wanted to speak or hear from
me again because she heard I was
supporting “anti-Christian’ Palestinians! Her husband was a (as
she put it) preacher and a “man of
God”!!! End of story.
Linda
Perhaps you should have asked her how Christian is it to dismiss a long term friend because she doesn't believe in genocide, and how Christian is it to condone it? As they say Linda with friends like that you don't need enemies.
How very sad and even more frightening. The brainwashing that supplants intelligent thought is, to me, the most frightening of all, I think...
Thank you for sharing. Peace
Fran. Yes. Exactly.
❤️👍
Thank you for your great work standing up for Palestine.
Trump received over 77 million votes. How many of those do you estimate were from Christian Fascists? Thank you.
i think i heard btwn 70 and 80%.
Thanks! I asked Grok and received this analysis. Bottom line - Between 5 and 15 million.
https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_4904f1b1-aa5b-4afa-95cc-1a8608d9c4f4
What is a Christian Fascist?
A "Christian Fascist" is not a formally defined term in political or religious scholarship but is generally understood as a pejorative or analytical label combining elements of Christianity with fascist ideology. Fascism, historically, is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology characterized by a dictatorial leader, suppression of opposition, nationalism, and the curtailment of individual freedoms. When paired with "Christian," it typically implies a worldview that merges Christian religious identity or values with these authoritarian and nationalist tendencies, often emphasizing a theocratic or exclusionary social order.
In contemporary discourse, the term might be used to describe individuals or groups who advocate for a strong, centralized government led by a figure they view as divinely ordained, while promoting policies that align with a conservative Christian agenda (e.g., opposition to abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, or secularism) alongside nationalist or anti-immigrant rhetoric. Critics might apply this label to certain Trump supporters who blend evangelical fervor with his "Make America Great Again" ethos, interpreting his leadership as a defense of a "Christian America" against perceived threats. However, the term is subjective and contentious, lacking a universal definition, and its application depends heavily on the perspective of the observer.
### How Many Christian Fascists Voted for Trump in 2024?
There is no direct data quantifying "Christian Fascists" who voted for Donald Trump in the 2024 presidential election because this is not a self-identified category tracked by exit polls or surveys. However, we can estimate based on broader data about Christian voters and their support for Trump, with the understanding that only a subset might fit the "Christian Fascist" description depending on how one defines it.
1. **Trump's Total Votes in 2024**: According to available data as of March 10, 2025, Donald Trump won approximately 77 million votes in the 2024 election, securing 312 Electoral College votes and 50.1% of the popular vote.
2. **Christian Voter Support**: Exit polls and post-election analyses indicate that Christians, particularly white evangelicals and other conservative Christian groups, were a significant part of Trump’s base:
- **Protestant/Other Christian Voters**: 63% of these voters (excluding Catholics) supported Trump, up from 60% in 2020, per network exit polls.
- **White Evangelical/Born-Again Christians**: 82% of this group voted for Trump, a strong showing consistent with prior elections.
- **Catholics**: 56% supported Trump, a 9-point increase from 47% in 2020, per The Washington Post exit polls.
- A report from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University found that 56% of self-identified Christians overall voted for Trump.
3. **Estimating Christian Votes**: With 155 million total votes cast in 2024, and assuming Christians (Protestants, evangelicals, Catholics, etc.) make up roughly 60-70% of the electorate (a reasonable estimate based on historical voting patterns and demographic data), approximately 93-108 million voters could be broadly categorized as Christian. If 56-63% of these voted for Trump (averaging data from various sources), that translates to roughly **52-68 million Christian votes** for Trump.
4. **Narrowing to "Christian Fascists"**: The subset of these voters who could be labeled "Christian Fascists" is harder to pin down without specific polling on authoritarian or nationalist attitudes tied to Christian identity. However:
- Groups like "Spiritually Active Governance Engaged Conservative Christians" (SAGE Cons), who exhibit strong conservative ideology and high political engagement, supported Trump at 90% and had a 99% turnout rate. This group, though small (likely a few million nationwide), might align closely with the "Christian Fascist" label due to their intense ideological commitment.
- White evangelicals, numbering around 20-25% of the electorate (31-39 million voters), voted overwhelmingly for Trump (82%), or roughly 25-32 million votes. Some within this bloc—particularly those who view Trump as a divinely chosen leader or support authoritarian measures—might fit the description, but this is a subjective judgment.
5. **Rough Estimate**: If we assume that "Christian Fascists" are a fraction of Trump’s Christian base—say, those with the most extreme nationalist and authoritarian leanings (e.g., SAGE Cons, ardent MAGA evangelicals)—a speculative range might be **5-15 million voters**. This is a broad guess, as it depends on how strictly one defines the term. For instance:
- If 10-20% of Trump’s evangelical voters (2.5-6.4 million) plus a portion of other conservative Christians (e.g., 2-8 million) exhibit these traits, the total could fall in this range.
- No precise data exists to confirm this, as surveys don’t explicitly ask voters if they identify as both Christian and fascist.
Conclusion
A "Christian Fascist" might be understood as a Christian who supports authoritarian governance infused with nationalist and religious zeal, potentially seeing Trump as a protector of a Christian nation. Based on 2024 election data, Trump received 52-68 million votes from self-identified Christians. The number of these who could be called "Christian Fascists" is speculative but might range from 5-15 million, depending on how narrowly or broadly the term is applied. Without targeted polling, this remains an educated approximation rather than a definitive count.
It's really an honor to be able to read your stuff. "Religion is superstition practiced by hypocrites" C. Hitchens
"Fascism has different iterations, but its core attributes are the same."
Of the many historical parallels that have been mentioned here and elsewhere over time, one this week was particularly salient, as expressed in Elon Musk's statement: ""The fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy."
Even in the larger context of the interview in which he said it, ("protecting civilization" in what he terms "weaponized empathy" - somehow implying they are righting some previously perpetuated wrong) the fundamental message is that those who are seen as inferior deserve to simply be eliminated from society. The actions of DOGE and Trump administration overall are targeting certain social groups.
In National Socialism, the sexual minorities, the handicapped, mentally and psychologically, were the first subjects of elimination. The wealth and benefits of society belong to a select group.
A matter of a difference of degree, but the pattern, and impulse behind it, is the same.
I always think people should determine, or interpret what is said, or by the person by reading the article or listening to the interview if possible, rather then listening to another's interpretation of what is said, especially in the age of Trump. I'll read it and reflect on it. As an example I never thought the motivation of democrats in their open door policy had anything to do with their concern for people as they repeatedly stated, but they might in the future constitute a voting block for the democrats. I heard Biden say a number of years ago that if elected he would build the biggest wall ever so that no one, no one, could get in illegally. Maybe that's what Musk means.
I agree.
I didn't watch the entire interview, but read the portion within which the comment was made, and that is the meaning that I get from that context, and within the general context of the actions of the Trump administration, the policies that they are intent in dismantling.
Elon Musk
Speaking of... How about what Musk was wearing during that meeting with Trump? Haven't seen this mentioned, but the form, color, and certain shape cap sure suggested a deliberately Fascist iconography to me. And its approval by plutocrats.
People are just throwing around this word fascist and they might do it enough that it becomes meaningless. Or are you kidding?
No, I wasn't "just throwing around a word." Nor am I anonymous "people." And my wording was precise--like using 'suggested' and 'iconography.' Look at a photo of that meeting. Do you know what the term "Black Shirt" means?
Replying to Rafi Simonton here: I guess you can consider this a form of a Rohrschach blot. I have to add: I do not have feelings of enmity regarding Steve Bannon. I've agreed with much of what I have read of his views on certain things. I was surprised. Things are never simple.
What I see here is someone trying to regain his former position as advisor to the Leader. The position now being held by someone else who made a similar gesture. Somewhat tentative, testing the waters, but strongly reminiscent of the same probable precedent.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5154286/user-clip-steve-bannon-nazi-salute
Worth mentioning again, to hold in mind: https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.htm
I see it as a visual form of dog whistle. Of course it requires realizing what "Black Shirt" means. Add that to the black and khaki clad participants of the Unite the Right demonstration in Charlottesville.
I also had in mind how Stalin, a former seminary student, deliberately posed himself and his officials so as to evoke Orthodox icons.
Besides, I used precise language--not "is" but "suggested."
For some reason, I didn't think of it at the time of writing the comment.
Elon Musk's sieg heil gesture, seems somewhat in line with the National Socialist parallel, and along with those values. I guess he could wear a swastika and clear up the question as a public service.
Is this a joke or are you serious because this is becoming crazy. It was no heil gesture, but one that implied from my heart I thank you. Or are you kidding?
I watched it, that it is what I saw.
You are free to see what you see.
I don't think that it is necessarily an indication of insanity on the part of either one of us if we disagree on how it appeared to us.
I hope that you are right in your assessment (at least as far as seems in the pattern of your comments) of the nature of the benevolence of the actions of MAGA and the absence of elements of fascism.
It seems clear that we disagree on this point. I think that this question will be answered over the course of time.
I'm not reflexively anti-MAGA, either. Depends on the context. I know all too well from 1st hand experience how the Dems abandoned the majority working class over 40 years ago.
I think the impact these so called Christian and Jewish groups have will solely be used to further the political agenda of Israel and the US. Biden had his neocons, like Blinken, who helped get the genocide on a roll by supplying Israel with bombs, and they were very successful in killing tens of thousands of Palestinians. Prior to that we cleared the playing ground for Israel by implementing our many middle eastern wars carried out by Bush/Cheney and Obama. The Christian right are no more then useful idiots. Not that I feel any empathy for them, I don't, since their so called religious beliefs are nothing less then extremely unchristian in the true sense of the word. P. S. They'll use anyone they can to carry forth this agenda and justify it, which was years in the making.
"I think the impact these so called Christian and Jewish groups have will solely be used to further the political agenda of Israel and the US. Biden had his neocons...The Christian right are no more then useful idiots."
-I think that they are more than this, I think that the influence works both ways, they are useful to the neocons and Zionists, but they are a demographic that is sizable enough (and extremely fervent and intent on establishing policy along the lines of their beliefs) to be a significant political force. Their ideology runs deep in them, however absurd and un-Christian it is doctrinally. Not exactly the tail wagging the dog, but more like some mutated conjoined (and rabid) dog.
They say the Catholics really got out there and voted for Trump, and no doubt other groups as well. Look at Biden's policies, a war in Ukraine that many feared could go nuclear, feeding Israel bombs to kill women and children, and you open your borders, your heart, to anyone who wants to cross our borders illegally, then take them into a welfare system, a country who cannot even take care of their own? Do you vote for a party who supported and implemented this agenda? To me their agenda was nothing but self serving, and during Trump's presidency they were willing to serve you one lie about him after another, and Russia-gate was a big one, They were sitting on their asses during Trump's inaugural speech, and popping up little round posts, like a bunch of stupid kids. Yuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not to mention Pelosi looked like she couldn't get up even if she tried.
I never said a word about the Democrats.
I wrote about MAGA and elements of fascism, within the context of the alliance with Christian conservatives and Zionists.
I never said a word about Russia-gate.
You make some big jumps here, lumping things together, Democrat versus Republican, seemingly falling into the usual combination of yoked beliefs that is played out by the political game. I think that the reality of human behavior and belief is much more complicated than the way the binary political party conflict plays out.
Please don't assume to know what my thinking is on these things.
Better to call it by its true name: Zionism. Not fascism.
And the difference is....?
I wish to point out that the majority of Jews in Israel are not descendants of the Twelve Tribes. They are Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, descendants of converts. I am one myself.
Quite right, Julie. That is what Shlomo Sand the Israeli historian and researcher tells in his best seller book "The invented Jewish people" In addition he tells that many of the Sephardi Jews are Berber converts. Here are some excerpts from this book:
"Two questions then immediately came to mind: 1) Where did the many Jewish believers present in Alexandria, Damascus, Rome, Cyprus, Cyrenaica and other regions and cities of the Mediterranean basin came from? 2) What was the fate of the population left in Judea/Palestine after the destruction of its great temple? A careful reading of ancient Roman literature and Jewish writings soon revealed to me an open secret: from the time of the Hasmonaeans, in the second century BCE, Judaism was clearly a proselytizing monotheism that experienced rapid expansion within the Hellenistic world. It was this popularization of Judaism that paved the way for the subsequent arrival of its two younger sisters, Christianity and Islam; their victory put a stop to conversions to Judaism, which at the same time became a dangerous foreigner whose traces they tried to hide. In the fourth century CE, with the victory of Christianity in the Eastern Roman Empire, the indigenous population of Palestine gradually began to change religion, as evidenced by the appearance of churches in Jerusalem and other sites in Judea and Galilee. However, the gap between the fundamental principles of Judaism and those of Christianity was too wide: the notion of the Son of God upset the rabbis. At the time of the Muslim conquest in the seventh century, however, the majority of the population effectively abandoned their old Jewish beliefs and rallied to the new prophet, who did not claim to be the Son of God and, after all, respected the Old Testament. It seems that there was an additional reason for Islamization: during the first phase of conquest, anyone who embraced the cult of Mohammed was exempt from paying taxes. There was therefore not a population replacement but a religious replacement. Does this mean that the direct descendants of the ancient children of Israel are the Palestinians? Not exactly. Successive conquerors all left their seed and their seal on the region, and there are no “pure” populations. Which brings us to the last but not least-important question: Is there a Jewish people like the one I learned about at school in Israel? The use of the concept of “a people” is not particularly scientific, and in fact more adulterated than many others. A Jew from Casablanca could not communicate with a Jew from Kiev; they did not like the same food and would have found the others clothing strange. On the other hand, they could have prayed in the same synagogue, despite differences in the formulation of prayers and liturgical singing. And so when was the “Jewish people,” in the modern sense of the word, invented? The answer is simple: in the second half of the nineteenth century, after the emergence of modern peoples and nations in Western Europe. And if the socialist party of the Bund subsequently applied the term “people” to the large emerging Yiddish population in Eastern Europe, Zionism included Jews from all over the world."
Very interesting. No pure populations.
True. I don't know if you have ordered an ancestry genetic test. I did with two different companies and I resulted with ancestry from many countries and cultures. The most puzzled me is 2.6% Neanderthal, 2% Sephardi from Spain and Portugal and 1% Ashkenazi from Ukraine.
Julio, we're probably related, along with everyone else. I never got that test, having read the results were sold. Life is diverse, something to be glad about. "Othering" is nonsense.
"No such thing as a Palestinian." Mike Huckabee said it, I believe it, that settles it. (Wordplay on a fundie bumper sticker: "God said it, I believe it...") Uh-huh.
No problem with the ugly implication of referring to a "thing" and not a person, right?
Well, Mike et al. my old copy of the King James Version, beloved by Protestant conservatives and subsequently by right wing evangelicals, has maps of biblical lands showing a place called Philistia, including a city called Gaza. If you do a search for "Philistines" you'll find some very ancient history confirmed by archeology.
Never mind pesky facts and inconvenient traditional Christian morality if it restores the privileges of white men at least as far back as the 1950s; even better, the 1850s. And resurrects the 19th C. Robber Barons with their descendants as an inherited plutocracy.
"A new poll revealed that Christian voters made a critical difference to help President Donald Trump win the 2024 election.
Trump received a majority of votes from Christians and especially Catholic voters, a study from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University found."
Christians made up 72% of the voters who participated in the election, the study noted. The report also highlighted that Catholics had a record-high turnout, even though overall voter participation, including among Christians, was lower than in 2020.
While voter turnout declined across most Christian subgroups compared to 2020, 70 percent of Catholics reported voting, an increase from 67 percent in 2020. Voters with a “biblical worldview” also showed higher participation, with 67 percent voting in 2024, up from 64 percent in 2020.
The report revealed that 20 percent of Christians considered abortion the most important issue in the election, while inflation (38 percent) and immigration (34 percent) ranked higher in concern.
https://www.rsbnetwork.com/news/christian-voters-were-a-critical-difference-in-trumps-election-win-study-finds/
Also see the very reliable stats from PRRI. https://www.prri.org/spotlight/religion-and-the-2024-presidential-election/
There is no human condition that is as mercurial and dangerous as a religious fanatic. Really scary stuff. I cannot but fear for my daughters’ future.
In my opinion Starmer’s England count amongst those authoritarian countries. Sadly, this list is not a numerous clausus. So, what is the next step for the fascists? Martial law?
I believe the alliance of the Jewish Zionism with the Christian Zionism is a pact with the devil that eventually the jews will regret. No need to wait for the end of times, just let Trump to take possession of Gaza and see what happens.
Chris and all: I'm reading more about the connections between transnational organized crime networks and authoritarian/fascist governments (eg. Putin, Erdogan, Trump) and am wondering how that impacts the strategy and tactics of our fight to defend and expand democracy both in the US and abroad?
Satan and Hitler must be high-fiving each other and laughing delightedly down in the deepest recesses of Hell: "We're winning! We're winning!"
TWITTER wont allow me to share this!
Maybe the MAGA folks will feel enough pain - mass firings, potential cuts in Medicaid, Social Security - to turn on Trump and his sycophant cabinet, and strike.
With all these firings, might the professional class turn to our side and resist? Also, is your hope for grass roots militancy utopic in a similar vein to your critique of Marxism? I still believe in a revolution where we shut down Animal Ag for starters.