Has Zionism, especially Liberal Zionist, exhausted itself? The humanistic constructs of liberal Zionism, always in conflict with itself because of its refusal to grant Palestinians equal civil and political rights, has led many Israelis to embrace a far more chauvinistic and fanatic religious Zionism. What does this mean for Israel? And, as important, what does this mean for Judaism? The Zionist movement, which became a dominating force with the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948, sought to shut out Jewish critics. It not only maligned Jews that did not embrace Zionism, but labeled them anti-Jews, self-hating Jews or counter-Jews. This war within Judaism between those who put Israel at the center of Jewish identity and those who did not ripped apart and continues to rip apart the Jewish collective. As Rabbi Shaul Magid writes, “The Talmudic sages teach that the heretic (apikorus or min) is actually worse that the idolater. In their estimation, unlike the idolator, the heretic subverts Judaism from the inside.” Rabbi Magid goes on to argue that the demand for the full Zionization of American Jewry is an attempt to brand all who do not give their primary loyalty to the State of Israel Jewish heretics, apostates. This battle within Zionism raises crucial questions. What role does exile play in Jewish belief? What role does the state of Israel play in Jewish belief? Is Zionism the only true refuge for Jews? Are Jews who reject Zionism and Israel’s occupation of the Palestinians, who embrace lives outside of Israel, upholding or defying Jewish tradition? Is the nation-state the best or healthiest collective structure for Jews? Is a Jewish homeland, known by Jews as the Land of Israel, connected to sovereignty? Judaism existed, of course, long before the concept of sovereignty and the Land of Israel has been the homeland of the Jews for millennia without sovereignty. Is the concept of “homeland” or in Hebrew
I just finished Laurent Guyenot's From Yahweh to Zion and I don't know if I can ever see the Jews in a different light than what he painted: the duel nature of the Zionist Jew and how superiority, exampled by their laws and refusal at assimilation and intermarriage to keep their blood pure reminds me of Hitler. I will listen to this carefully and if I change my mind or have other comments, I will post again.
I would respectfully suggest you acquire a copy of "South Africa: Prospects for a Successful Transition" edited by Robert Tucker and Bruce Scott (Prof. Harvard Business School). The book is the edited transcripts of the activities of the group that led de Klerk through the decision to abandon apartheid and negotiations with various parties for the transition to majority rule.
Chapter 1 is the critical chapter, it summarizes the review Bruce did of some 100+ failed societies and the scenarios the legendary scenario planner Pierre Waack created from those reviews. That summary is reduced to one chart on page 37. It is the chart that de Klerk was looking at when he closed the chapter of South African history called apartheid.
It applies equally to Israel (and perhaps the post-1980 USA). I have most of Bruce's work in my files but I am missing the hardcopy of the societal reviews. These boxes are bing checked into the Baker Library collection and will eventually be public.
From Bruce's work, Israel has two choices a completely free and functionally viable 2nd State it no longer controls or a plural society. Anything short and the violence continues. Copies of the book are hard to find, I can generally get the at Abe's online.
Let us be frank and clear. Israel, like Iran, is a theological fascist state.
But unlike other movements, Zionists work with Christian Fundamentalists, their nemesis to assure the state of Israel and Zionism is maintained.
This partnership between evangelical Christians and Zionism makes for a vicious brew.
We see it now.
do you think the Evangelicals like Hagee actually like 'Jews'?
Israel is a weaponized, theocratic country that is very, very dangerous for it has EVERYTHING to lose and so do the neo-cons like Richard Perle, et. al. for they all are on Israeli passports.
Theological fascism is on the rise and it is this that we must speak of.
All religions are dangerous when used to capture state hierarchy.
Israel is no different and is hardly a democracy.
America is a theocratic nation that has simply not yet transformed into its own form of Sharia.
The existence and behavior of Israel itself is fomenting anti-Semitism, as can be seen by many of the comments here. As a Jew, I wish Israel didn't even exist. Israel's existence and actions, culminating with its current genocide, are endangering us Jews, including ironically those of us who totally oppose Israel.
Jews have been expelled over 1000 times within the last 2000 years from countries, duchies and the likes, https://rumble.com/v3xo77w-jews-expelled-1030-times.html. That tells you a lot how they can't live with other people, let alone with themselves. If you remove all the Arabs in Israel, the Jews will fight each other; this time they won't have to blame anyone else but themselves.
I lived in Israel in the early 80s and could see easily this eventually occurring. I remember this Arab village in the Golan where the Israeli Gov't had moved their main well from the centre of the city to about 25 km outside the city; I assumed it was to better control them but mostly to steal their water. Then I noticed the Israelis watering their huge gardens all day long. Knowing the shortage of water they should water at night as in the daytime, half the water never reaches the ground because of the heat. Furthermore, a few years ago, I read that they had planted trees that came from Northern Europe even after they were told that those trees needed a lot of water. Just these 2 examples shows that it's a matter of time the Israelis attack a neighbouring country to get their water. They don't even know how to handle the land they stole. When they manage to remove all Arabs from Israel, they will only have themselves to pick on. I doubt they will last that long.
Thank you, Chris. There is much food for thought here as I struggle to understand the relation between Judaism and Zionism.
Another highly useful tool in understanding this is Miko Peled's interview with Rabbi Dovid Feldman from January 14. It may be necessary to (at least to access this interview) join Miko's Patreon page, but for those wishing to further their understanding, it's a great investment of the five bucks.
Chris, I just wrote this to your Alma Mater regarding “The Quiet American” Empire showdown which has been engaged with a game of Nuclear ‘Chicken’:
@Daniel Ashworth
Daniel, hopefully Ms. Victoria “ef the EU”, PNAC, Kagan-Nuland’s war-ginning exercise of 2014 will be taken as “seriously — as a heat-attack” — or any other implied attack.
Jews use "antisemitism" all the time. I thought it only referred to Jews, until my Lebanese friend told me that he was Semitic. Palestinians are Semitic. I wish people would address this more instead of lettingJew co-op the term and use it to condemn anyone who speaks against the Israeli government.
"Semitic - Originally: a member of any of the peoples mentioned in Genesis 10:21–31 as descended from Shem, one of the sons of Noah, traditionally interpreted as including the Hebrews, Aramaeans, Assyrians, and Arabs."
My knowledge of Judaic law is slim to non-existent. My unwillingness to conflate Jewish supremacy as expressed by Zionism with Judaism stems from the interview by Miko Peled of the Rabbi Dovid Feldman (Jan 14 of this year), during which Feldman states that in Leviticus, Jews are exiled from Palestine because they broke with their covenant, and by the same law are forbidden from returning, at least in any role of ruling the land. And as I explored the issue of the creation of Zionism, I see that it was vociferously opposed by by the traditional Jewish establishment, mostly in Eastern Europe, during the late 1800's when Zionism's modern form, advocating the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, was in the process of being created. And it's still strongly opposed and considered heretical by the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, of whom Rabbi Feldman is a member. I highly recommend the interview, and would be interested in hearing your take on it.
Demagogues and charlatans have historically hidden their agendas behind the cloak of various religions to commit the most heinous crimes imaginable. And devout scholars of those faiths have historically opposed them. To equate all Jews with Jewish supremacy or Zionism ignores the fact the most strident and effective resistance to this genocide happening in Gaza today, at least in this country, is being led by groups like Jewish Voice for Peace (full disclosure, I'm a member, though I'm allergic to organized religion), If Not Now, and the Orthodox Jewish community as personified by folks such as Rabbi Feldman. And to lump all Jews together does the folks I've just mentioned a great disservice and undermines their work for peace and justice in Palestine.
I'm a serious admirer of the work of Miko Peled, one of whose books, *The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine*, has inspired me to believe that, by working across the lines of ethnicism, religion, national borders, and other fictitiously imposed divisions among humans, we can vanquish the ideas of white supremacy, Jewish supremacy, and other toxic elements of collective consciousness from our discourse. And if we don't vanquish these ideas, or at least deligitimize them, we're going to go extinct as a species.
Just an aside here: Chomsky is not against BDS. There is an interview with him where he says that he supports BDS. It is a video interview and those are his words.
The comments in this section have little to do with Chris Hedges interview and are filled with generalizations about Jews which are anti semetic, which as a Jew I find insulting and disgusting!
I have to say this was a fascinating interview and I got some good insight.
However, IF you want to reach out to people in the US in particular you have to NOT speak 'down' to them.
I have NO idea what BDSM means. Spell it out. did work it out from the conversation but some will not.
I don't know if you academics are aware that we are inundated with acronyms To me it is a way of keeping people dumb.
IF you want to use acronyms: write them out before you start.OR get rid of them!
I live in a family of academics (I was the artist) I have been ignored mostly BUT there is absolutely NO doubt I have a lot more knowledge about daily life than an academic.
It seems that this problem is easy to resolve. De-couple the term “Jew” and Israel. Let “Jew” and “Jews” refer to people who practice Judaism. Since practicing Jews come from all over the world, the argument of a blood line or race is moot. Let Israel stand alone as its nationality and in all its actions on behalf of ISRAEL. NOT ON BEHALF OF “Jews”. and reserve the term “Jew” for those who actively practice Judaism. Then criticism of what Israel does - as it relates to atrocities , genocide, racism, apartheid, - won’t be connected to practicing jews or hidden behind a faith that is disconnect from it. And those practicing Judaism can disconnect from any criticism or action against ISRAEl because it’s no longer a part of their “identity”. I just can’t imagine any human wanting to be associated with the Israeli governments decision of genocide because they proclaim to be acting for all “Jews”. They don’t. Luckily, this is becoming more clear every single day.
There’s no need to argue about what Judaism is or isn’t. It deserves to be de-coupled with Israel who se current leaders could not care about the lives of those practicing Jews in Israel and certainly not anywhere else or about the lives of innocent human beings. The problem has never been Judaism. The problem is Israel. Zionism is an ideology picking from Judaism , Christianity to justify its ideology. It still. Just an ideology where as Judaism is a religion. Opposition to an ideology that cherry picks from religion to justify its ideology is not anti semetism. Opposition to Judaism , the place where the ideology is gathering its justification is anti semetism. This is not difficult. Decouple Israel from “Jew” and let criticism of Zionism remain open to its ideology as NOT anti semettic. Palestinians are SEMITES. GENOCIDE IS ANTI SEMETIC BY DEFINITION.
Outstanding interview. Thank you so much. I will get Professor Magid's book. I am very worried for the fate of humanity, as, both Chris Hedges and Rabbi Shaul Magid make very clear, the trends are not exactly positive..
I just finished Laurent Guyenot's From Yahweh to Zion and I don't know if I can ever see the Jews in a different light than what he painted: the duel nature of the Zionist Jew and how superiority, exampled by their laws and refusal at assimilation and intermarriage to keep their blood pure reminds me of Hitler. I will listen to this carefully and if I change my mind or have other comments, I will post again.
I would respectfully suggest you acquire a copy of "South Africa: Prospects for a Successful Transition" edited by Robert Tucker and Bruce Scott (Prof. Harvard Business School). The book is the edited transcripts of the activities of the group that led de Klerk through the decision to abandon apartheid and negotiations with various parties for the transition to majority rule.
Chapter 1 is the critical chapter, it summarizes the review Bruce did of some 100+ failed societies and the scenarios the legendary scenario planner Pierre Waack created from those reviews. That summary is reduced to one chart on page 37. It is the chart that de Klerk was looking at when he closed the chapter of South African history called apartheid.
It applies equally to Israel (and perhaps the post-1980 USA). I have most of Bruce's work in my files but I am missing the hardcopy of the societal reviews. These boxes are bing checked into the Baker Library collection and will eventually be public.
From Bruce's work, Israel has two choices a completely free and functionally viable 2nd State it no longer controls or a plural society. Anything short and the violence continues. Copies of the book are hard to find, I can generally get the at Abe's online.
Let us be frank and clear. Israel, like Iran, is a theological fascist state.
But unlike other movements, Zionists work with Christian Fundamentalists, their nemesis to assure the state of Israel and Zionism is maintained.
This partnership between evangelical Christians and Zionism makes for a vicious brew.
We see it now.
do you think the Evangelicals like Hagee actually like 'Jews'?
Israel is a weaponized, theocratic country that is very, very dangerous for it has EVERYTHING to lose and so do the neo-cons like Richard Perle, et. al. for they all are on Israeli passports.
Theological fascism is on the rise and it is this that we must speak of.
All religions are dangerous when used to capture state hierarchy.
Israel is no different and is hardly a democracy.
America is a theocratic nation that has simply not yet transformed into its own form of Sharia.
It will. When Trump comes back, their messiah
The existence and behavior of Israel itself is fomenting anti-Semitism, as can be seen by many of the comments here. As a Jew, I wish Israel didn't even exist. Israel's existence and actions, culminating with its current genocide, are endangering us Jews, including ironically those of us who totally oppose Israel.
Jews have been expelled over 1000 times within the last 2000 years from countries, duchies and the likes, https://rumble.com/v3xo77w-jews-expelled-1030-times.html. That tells you a lot how they can't live with other people, let alone with themselves. If you remove all the Arabs in Israel, the Jews will fight each other; this time they won't have to blame anyone else but themselves.
I lived in Israel in the early 80s and could see easily this eventually occurring. I remember this Arab village in the Golan where the Israeli Gov't had moved their main well from the centre of the city to about 25 km outside the city; I assumed it was to better control them but mostly to steal their water. Then I noticed the Israelis watering their huge gardens all day long. Knowing the shortage of water they should water at night as in the daytime, half the water never reaches the ground because of the heat. Furthermore, a few years ago, I read that they had planted trees that came from Northern Europe even after they were told that those trees needed a lot of water. Just these 2 examples shows that it's a matter of time the Israelis attack a neighbouring country to get their water. They don't even know how to handle the land they stole. When they manage to remove all Arabs from Israel, they will only have themselves to pick on. I doubt they will last that long.
Thank you, Chris. There is much food for thought here as I struggle to understand the relation between Judaism and Zionism.
Another highly useful tool in understanding this is Miko Peled's interview with Rabbi Dovid Feldman from January 14. It may be necessary to (at least to access this interview) join Miko's Patreon page, but for those wishing to further their understanding, it's a great investment of the five bucks.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/conversation-of-96510870
Chris, I just wrote this to your Alma Mater regarding “The Quiet American” Empire showdown which has been engaged with a game of Nuclear ‘Chicken’:
@Daniel Ashworth
Daniel, hopefully Ms. Victoria “ef the EU”, PNAC, Kagan-Nuland’s war-ginning exercise of 2014 will be taken as “seriously — as a heat-attack” — or any other implied attack.
AntiSemitism was most certainly used against Jeremy Corbyn unfairly. Corbyn did not fight back. That was a mistake.
Jews use "antisemitism" all the time. I thought it only referred to Jews, until my Lebanese friend told me that he was Semitic. Palestinians are Semitic. I wish people would address this more instead of lettingJew co-op the term and use it to condemn anyone who speaks against the Israeli government.
"Semitic - Originally: a member of any of the peoples mentioned in Genesis 10:21–31 as descended from Shem, one of the sons of Noah, traditionally interpreted as including the Hebrews, Aramaeans, Assyrians, and Arabs."
My knowledge of Judaic law is slim to non-existent. My unwillingness to conflate Jewish supremacy as expressed by Zionism with Judaism stems from the interview by Miko Peled of the Rabbi Dovid Feldman (Jan 14 of this year), during which Feldman states that in Leviticus, Jews are exiled from Palestine because they broke with their covenant, and by the same law are forbidden from returning, at least in any role of ruling the land. And as I explored the issue of the creation of Zionism, I see that it was vociferously opposed by by the traditional Jewish establishment, mostly in Eastern Europe, during the late 1800's when Zionism's modern form, advocating the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, was in the process of being created. And it's still strongly opposed and considered heretical by the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, of whom Rabbi Feldman is a member. I highly recommend the interview, and would be interested in hearing your take on it.
Demagogues and charlatans have historically hidden their agendas behind the cloak of various religions to commit the most heinous crimes imaginable. And devout scholars of those faiths have historically opposed them. To equate all Jews with Jewish supremacy or Zionism ignores the fact the most strident and effective resistance to this genocide happening in Gaza today, at least in this country, is being led by groups like Jewish Voice for Peace (full disclosure, I'm a member, though I'm allergic to organized religion), If Not Now, and the Orthodox Jewish community as personified by folks such as Rabbi Feldman. And to lump all Jews together does the folks I've just mentioned a great disservice and undermines their work for peace and justice in Palestine.
I'm a serious admirer of the work of Miko Peled, one of whose books, *The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine*, has inspired me to believe that, by working across the lines of ethnicism, religion, national borders, and other fictitiously imposed divisions among humans, we can vanquish the ideas of white supremacy, Jewish supremacy, and other toxic elements of collective consciousness from our discourse. And if we don't vanquish these ideas, or at least deligitimize them, we're going to go extinct as a species.
Just an aside here: Chomsky is not against BDS. There is an interview with him where he says that he supports BDS. It is a video interview and those are his words.
The comments in this section have little to do with Chris Hedges interview and are filled with generalizations about Jews which are anti semetic, which as a Jew I find insulting and disgusting!
I have to say this was a fascinating interview and I got some good insight.
However, IF you want to reach out to people in the US in particular you have to NOT speak 'down' to them.
I have NO idea what BDSM means. Spell it out. did work it out from the conversation but some will not.
I don't know if you academics are aware that we are inundated with acronyms To me it is a way of keeping people dumb.
IF you want to use acronyms: write them out before you start.OR get rid of them!
I live in a family of academics (I was the artist) I have been ignored mostly BUT there is absolutely NO doubt I have a lot more knowledge about daily life than an academic.
Been there/done this/know this.
It seems that this problem is easy to resolve. De-couple the term “Jew” and Israel. Let “Jew” and “Jews” refer to people who practice Judaism. Since practicing Jews come from all over the world, the argument of a blood line or race is moot. Let Israel stand alone as its nationality and in all its actions on behalf of ISRAEL. NOT ON BEHALF OF “Jews”. and reserve the term “Jew” for those who actively practice Judaism. Then criticism of what Israel does - as it relates to atrocities , genocide, racism, apartheid, - won’t be connected to practicing jews or hidden behind a faith that is disconnect from it. And those practicing Judaism can disconnect from any criticism or action against ISRAEl because it’s no longer a part of their “identity”. I just can’t imagine any human wanting to be associated with the Israeli governments decision of genocide because they proclaim to be acting for all “Jews”. They don’t. Luckily, this is becoming more clear every single day.
There’s no need to argue about what Judaism is or isn’t. It deserves to be de-coupled with Israel who se current leaders could not care about the lives of those practicing Jews in Israel and certainly not anywhere else or about the lives of innocent human beings. The problem has never been Judaism. The problem is Israel. Zionism is an ideology picking from Judaism , Christianity to justify its ideology. It still. Just an ideology where as Judaism is a religion. Opposition to an ideology that cherry picks from religion to justify its ideology is not anti semetism. Opposition to Judaism , the place where the ideology is gathering its justification is anti semetism. This is not difficult. Decouple Israel from “Jew” and let criticism of Zionism remain open to its ideology as NOT anti semettic. Palestinians are SEMITES. GENOCIDE IS ANTI SEMETIC BY DEFINITION.
being lost and pretending you're found?...
with every manmade doctrine...
that builds walls around the soul...
it's harder for the heart and mind...
to know pure love and truth at all!...
it isn't as if some void exists...
that often ends up filled...
but rather it's the pathways there...
blocked off with say-so hills!...
how can someone understand...
when a barrier is preventing that?...
instead it follows its own intentions...
and may never know where it's really at!...
...
Outstanding interview. Thank you so much. I will get Professor Magid's book. I am very worried for the fate of humanity, as, both Chris Hedges and Rabbi Shaul Magid make very clear, the trends are not exactly positive..