“Religious nationalism is to religion what National Socialism was to socialism.” Brilliant!
That same hypocrisy is visible throughout Israeli claims that its murderous genocide in Gaza either pursues self-defense or respects human rights.
That said, it seems to me that focusing on Israel lets Washington off the hook for its crucial role in (1) arming Israel, (2) insulating Israel from rebuke by the international community by foolishly committing Washington’s veto in the UN security council, and (3) continuing to spread disinformation in the service of war and violence. While the first two of those problems have been widely acknowledge, the third has not—even though documented sources of public disinformation include President Biden. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/the-first-casualty-of-war-is-the
Ultimately, the actor most poised to bring an end to the genocide in Gaza is the United States. And according to the rhetoric of our leaders, Americans live in a democracy. That would suggest that either American voters are ultimately responsible, or that democracy in America is a convenient myth. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/the-genocide-in-gaza-is-a-test-of
Even if democracy in America is merely cosmetic, and there is no effective formal check or balance that can constrain the Pentagon or its support for authoritarian proxy powers around the world, there remains at least one way for popular resistance to force Washington to shift its relationship with Israel. It would require mass mobilization by organized labor, which in 2023 established its most prolific successes in decades.
The still tenuous--one could even claim cosmetic, especially in the case of Amazon and Hollywood-- victories of the three labor leaders are entirely economic, so while they inspired an unshakeable resistance to power, it is very likely only in that economic context that such resistance functions effectively.
Very likely the best economic case to be made here is the rather obvious argument that we stop sending hundreds of billions (actually trillions overall) abroad for these failing military purposes and apply what remains potentially accessible, through taxation of this strange house of cards of financialized wealth, to creation of real productive wealth here in the US, beginning with physical infrastructure and social infrastructure that works.
It seems as though there in Israel, the US, Europe, etc. a general and profound global leadership crisis. The super-wealthy and their corporations have compromised every national government institution essentially robbing them of any real authority other than their militaries. The super-wealthy have created political leaders who are intentionally incompetent. Thus freeing the corporate and banking interests free rein to block all progressive and environmental policies (which we desperately need!). Unfortunately corporations and banking CEOs make really terrible governors. This is something the Chinese really understand. Competence in governance is the true bottom line in sustaining a functional society. The US does NOT understand this concept. Both Biden and Trump are nasty, mean spirited, greedy, corrupt, broken, men. They are truly shit. Seriously. At this historic moment when humanity faces challenges above and beyond anything we’ve ever dealt with, we end up with Beavis and Butt-Head. This is tragic. My heart goes out to the Palestinians. I’m ashamed of my country and its evil empire.
I appreciate this interview and learned much about the gradual development of extreme Zionism and its goals as well as the humanity still found in much of the Jewish Israeli population. The gradual intentional wearing down/corruption of "democratic" institutions and ideals under the greater goals of Colonialism and Fascistic empires. I also feel the micro and macro analysis is also missing the even greater global-macro goals involved.
What I have come to from decades of connecting dots is that in this century this is now about the Neo-Colonial goals of the theft of oil, natural gas and resources, backed by the obscenely profitable billion dollar weapons of war industry, more than about the acquisition of land or the subjugation/genocide of entire populations for its own sake. It's about what's under that land or water. But the goals and means to those goals are also age old: The Bottom Line: Profit; and Divide (Apartheid) and Conquer. I've included the sites below.
All the identities people feel emotional ties to - religious, racial, gender, nationality, political parties, ideology, etc. are the powerful tools used to fan hatred and division, neighbor against neighbor, deflection (at home and abroad), as well as the deliberate cultivation of fear and self interest. This "Occupation" is of the human mind and heart. In this case, Great Britain and the U.S. planting highly traumatized Ashkenazi Jews in the center of the Middle East, offering them a "Country" (to my mind a glorified U.S./Nato strategic military base and pouring billions into it), training them in warfare to decimate those who lived in Palestine for generations, mostly in peace with other Jews and Christians, and fanning their 2500 year long gone fantasy & right to the "Holy Land." As Chris pointed out, the current formation of Israel was never about "atonement." Both populations are being used and both are ultimately expendable as were the Iraqis and afghans.
The bigger and more powerful nations as well as unstoppably voracious global multi-national corporations become - the less Humanity. These ENTITIES that corrupt fallible human beings are the true evil we are up against in Gaza and elsewhere. I do not know what the answer is that will stop this rapacious greed, but I know it is essential that we see it and name it so that the greater forces for good can mobilize the energies we may not even yet know or imagine we have against them.
And at the same time to never lose sight of the daily horror the Gazans and Palestinians are experiencing so that we witness their grief and they are never far from our hearts, as hard as that is some days.
The history of humankind is moving inexorably into a fateful alliance with the environment itself. We will rise or fall by its dictates. In my opinion only a true democracy will have the flexibility and sensitivity to manage successfully this relationship. Otherwise we’re doomed.
The following are just a sample of the many sites one can find of the face of what Colonialism/Empire looks like today. It may look like a lot, but all one has to do is skim the first paragraph of each to get the entire picture. My fear is that our goal is to goad Iran, whose vast oil we want, to make a wrong move (much like we did in the Russia/Ukraine proxy war). But where that could go is insanity:
Ilan Pappe, Miko Peled, Gideon Levy, these are the beacons of freedom.
But, that the French will no longer “defend to the death our right to say it”? I used to stroll into a small museum on the Left Bank where they kept a guillotine blade used in 1789, just a few steps away. “How much has changed!”I would think...
Poor France! I knew things were going wrong when they started making bacon and egg croissants.
Prof. Ilan Pappé presents the history and current situation in such a fact-filled and logical way that this podcast just reset my naive and emotional perspective on Israel and Gaza. Thank you for this awakening. It is appalling that massive brute force violence against civilians is the best plan that Israeli leadership has come up with, and astonishing that US leadership seems to think that vetoing a UN cease-fire resolution in any way enhances US international standing. It's a disgusting spectacle replete with repugnant soundbites from high-ranking officials and the world is watching.
The plan of erasing the civilisation in Gaza is obvious to everyone with some working brain cells. Famine, lack of water, diseases and lack of medical supplies will do what Israel had in mind to the remaining two million people, even if they stopped actively murdering civilian men, women and children alike. But this needs to stop! Never again is right now (or rather three months ago).
Simply pointing out that the Israeli regime and its American enablers are "evil" is pointless, the way quoting Bible verses to an armed robber is futile.
Force is the language that sociopaths understand. In fact, force is the ONLY language that they understand, although they understand it quite well.
I cried today for the People of Palestine, for their grief and trauma. For whatever good that will do. I also cried for my fellow citizens, 70% of whom want the murder and destruction of Gaza to stop, yet are powerless to make that happen. Despite our ostensible democracy, our representative government, that has tragically been stolen from us. In that theft we lost our, the People’s, power over our own wealth and technology. Now we witness its use to pointlessly kill the innocent and the powerless. This theft by the super wealthy cannot be tolerated. It is evil and threatens our lives and our Children’s lives. The future demands that we must have a functional democracy, NOW! If we don’t fix this the next Gaza will be here, the next crushing of life and order will be here in the USA. And we will deserve it.
Such a nightmare and a shame what the United States is doing. I learned more from this interview. Thank you. People my age here in the US are engrossed in fantasy football and aren’t paying attention to much. They kind of know the world is a mess but they just figure there’s nothing they can do and they aren’t going to do anything but focus on their own situation. Many still say “Trump is worse than Biden.” I’d say Biden’s had more opportunity in office to do more damage. I think of George Carlin’s quotes; “we’re barely outta the jungle on this planet.” Ordinary Jungle beasts. Savages.” “Semi-civilized beings..with baseball caps & automatic weapons.” It’s fundamentally about greed and a lack of space, land. Even with plenty of room someone wants to conquer your land. And As professor IIan states; “doomed to fail from the beginning.” Gaza is so small geographically and so densely populated. The United States is going to be hated by Ukrainians, hated by more middle easterners. As Chris says; “a pariah nation.” The climate disaster may be our ultimate demise. As another Carlin quote; “the earth is doing fine, it’s the people who are fkd. We’re just a surface problem to the earth.” “The earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas.”
If Israel does completely consume all of the West Bank and Gaza strip and manages to eliminate most of the Palestinians, how many think Israel will simply there land grab? Won't they continue to consume greater portions of land using the slogans "security" and the "right to self defense" to justify what they are doing.
Thanks for bringing Pappe in to discuss this. I rely on both of you to better understand Israel/Palestine.
That said, I wish you'd had a chance to cover the possible ramifications of the ICJ case brought by RSA. I know it had not yet occurred at the time you taped this, but it was clearly coming.
While some dismiss any ICJ result as meaningless, I disagree. A provisional finding for RSA (it's theoretically possible) would significantly increase pressure on the Biden Admin., and Israel's reaction to the case shows they do not take it lightly.
Regardless of what happens on the ground in Gaza - whatever point of very tentative and weak stability is arrived at there militarily in the future - the key to all this is the American Street chipping away at US Israel policy, including the electoral removal of the Biden Admin. The RSA vs. Israel case could significantly advance the Street's efforts in the US and among "allies" in Europe.
“Religious nationalism is to religion what National Socialism was to socialism.” Brilliant!
That same hypocrisy is visible throughout Israeli claims that its murderous genocide in Gaza either pursues self-defense or respects human rights.
That said, it seems to me that focusing on Israel lets Washington off the hook for its crucial role in (1) arming Israel, (2) insulating Israel from rebuke by the international community by foolishly committing Washington’s veto in the UN security council, and (3) continuing to spread disinformation in the service of war and violence. While the first two of those problems have been widely acknowledge, the third has not—even though documented sources of public disinformation include President Biden. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/the-first-casualty-of-war-is-the
Ultimately, the actor most poised to bring an end to the genocide in Gaza is the United States. And according to the rhetoric of our leaders, Americans live in a democracy. That would suggest that either American voters are ultimately responsible, or that democracy in America is a convenient myth. https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/the-genocide-in-gaza-is-a-test-of
Even if democracy in America is merely cosmetic, and there is no effective formal check or balance that can constrain the Pentagon or its support for authoritarian proxy powers around the world, there remains at least one way for popular resistance to force Washington to shift its relationship with Israel. It would require mass mobilization by organized labor, which in 2023 established its most prolific successes in decades.
Three individuals, in particular, have demonstrated success in challenging corporate America. Can unions remember what solidarity means beyond the discrete interests of their members? https://shahidbuttar.substack.com/p/we-the-people-can-unplug-the-war
The still tenuous--one could even claim cosmetic, especially in the case of Amazon and Hollywood-- victories of the three labor leaders are entirely economic, so while they inspired an unshakeable resistance to power, it is very likely only in that economic context that such resistance functions effectively.
Very likely the best economic case to be made here is the rather obvious argument that we stop sending hundreds of billions (actually trillions overall) abroad for these failing military purposes and apply what remains potentially accessible, through taxation of this strange house of cards of financialized wealth, to creation of real productive wealth here in the US, beginning with physical infrastructure and social infrastructure that works.
I agree. Unions organizing against genocide.
I note that there are a few hundred people maybe more, demonstrating outside MIC facilities throughout the US.
People making these weapons are complicit.
It seems as though there in Israel, the US, Europe, etc. a general and profound global leadership crisis. The super-wealthy and their corporations have compromised every national government institution essentially robbing them of any real authority other than their militaries. The super-wealthy have created political leaders who are intentionally incompetent. Thus freeing the corporate and banking interests free rein to block all progressive and environmental policies (which we desperately need!). Unfortunately corporations and banking CEOs make really terrible governors. This is something the Chinese really understand. Competence in governance is the true bottom line in sustaining a functional society. The US does NOT understand this concept. Both Biden and Trump are nasty, mean spirited, greedy, corrupt, broken, men. They are truly shit. Seriously. At this historic moment when humanity faces challenges above and beyond anything we’ve ever dealt with, we end up with Beavis and Butt-Head. This is tragic. My heart goes out to the Palestinians. I’m ashamed of my country and its evil empire.
I appreciate this interview and learned much about the gradual development of extreme Zionism and its goals as well as the humanity still found in much of the Jewish Israeli population. The gradual intentional wearing down/corruption of "democratic" institutions and ideals under the greater goals of Colonialism and Fascistic empires. I also feel the micro and macro analysis is also missing the even greater global-macro goals involved.
What I have come to from decades of connecting dots is that in this century this is now about the Neo-Colonial goals of the theft of oil, natural gas and resources, backed by the obscenely profitable billion dollar weapons of war industry, more than about the acquisition of land or the subjugation/genocide of entire populations for its own sake. It's about what's under that land or water. But the goals and means to those goals are also age old: The Bottom Line: Profit; and Divide (Apartheid) and Conquer. I've included the sites below.
All the identities people feel emotional ties to - religious, racial, gender, nationality, political parties, ideology, etc. are the powerful tools used to fan hatred and division, neighbor against neighbor, deflection (at home and abroad), as well as the deliberate cultivation of fear and self interest. This "Occupation" is of the human mind and heart. In this case, Great Britain and the U.S. planting highly traumatized Ashkenazi Jews in the center of the Middle East, offering them a "Country" (to my mind a glorified U.S./Nato strategic military base and pouring billions into it), training them in warfare to decimate those who lived in Palestine for generations, mostly in peace with other Jews and Christians, and fanning their 2500 year long gone fantasy & right to the "Holy Land." As Chris pointed out, the current formation of Israel was never about "atonement." Both populations are being used and both are ultimately expendable as were the Iraqis and afghans.
The bigger and more powerful nations as well as unstoppably voracious global multi-national corporations become - the less Humanity. These ENTITIES that corrupt fallible human beings are the true evil we are up against in Gaza and elsewhere. I do not know what the answer is that will stop this rapacious greed, but I know it is essential that we see it and name it so that the greater forces for good can mobilize the energies we may not even yet know or imagine we have against them.
And at the same time to never lose sight of the daily horror the Gazans and Palestinians are experiencing so that we witness their grief and they are never far from our hearts, as hard as that is some days.
The history of humankind is moving inexorably into a fateful alliance with the environment itself. We will rise or fall by its dictates. In my opinion only a true democracy will have the flexibility and sensitivity to manage successfully this relationship. Otherwise we’re doomed.
The following are just a sample of the many sites one can find of the face of what Colonialism/Empire looks like today. It may look like a lot, but all one has to do is skim the first paragraph of each to get the entire picture. My fear is that our goal is to goad Iran, whose vast oil we want, to make a wrong move (much like we did in the Russia/Ukraine proxy war). But where that could go is insanity:
Iraq:
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2012/1/7/western-oil-firms-remain-as-us-exits-iraq
Yemen:
https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/250
Somalia
https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/050923-coastline-exploration-leads-new-charge-on-somalia-oil-and-gas
Ukraine
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/04/28/us-corporations-ukraine-oil-gas/
Saudis own largest U.S. oil refinery
https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/gas-prices-verify/saudi-government-aramco-owns-largest-us-oil-refinery-port-arthur/536-4a1649c8-445a-46e9-94d1-6c39e9727d2e
Oil in Palestine that Israel/U.S. is taking:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-palestine-war-geopolitics-gaza-multibillion-dollar-gas-field
https://atmos.earth/this-genocide-is-about-oil/
The Oil in Iran the US/Multinational fossil fuel corporations are after:
https://apnews.com/general-news-a6adb7b30adb444998541b1b5aca4332
The U.S. creating "terrorist" after "terrorist", Divide and Conquor (for Oil & Resources) & the CIA role:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq
And there is increased fracking all over the U.S. Great Lakes, Alaska, etc. uder Biden.....ie.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/13/alaska-willow-project-approved-oil-gas-biden
For me this IS about Iran.
Ilan Pappe, Miko Peled, Gideon Levy, these are the beacons of freedom.
But, that the French will no longer “defend to the death our right to say it”? I used to stroll into a small museum on the Left Bank where they kept a guillotine blade used in 1789, just a few steps away. “How much has changed!”I would think...
Poor France! I knew things were going wrong when they started making bacon and egg croissants.
Not to mention MacDonalds etc.
In France we have no hope with Macron and the Socialists with Melanchon are tired and old!
This is no different than the rise of the Nazi party. A rose is a rose, no matter what you call it.
Prof. Ilan Pappé presents the history and current situation in such a fact-filled and logical way that this podcast just reset my naive and emotional perspective on Israel and Gaza. Thank you for this awakening. It is appalling that massive brute force violence against civilians is the best plan that Israeli leadership has come up with, and astonishing that US leadership seems to think that vetoing a UN cease-fire resolution in any way enhances US international standing. It's a disgusting spectacle replete with repugnant soundbites from high-ranking officials and the world is watching.
Can we have subtitles please. Many of us are deaf. Thanks
The plan of erasing the civilisation in Gaza is obvious to everyone with some working brain cells. Famine, lack of water, diseases and lack of medical supplies will do what Israel had in mind to the remaining two million people, even if they stopped actively murdering civilian men, women and children alike. But this needs to stop! Never again is right now (or rather three months ago).
Simply pointing out that the Israeli regime and its American enablers are "evil" is pointless, the way quoting Bible verses to an armed robber is futile.
Force is the language that sociopaths understand. In fact, force is the ONLY language that they understand, although they understand it quite well.
FF, who are the sociopaths in your calculus?
Power is to sociopaths what catnip is to cats. Except 'nip is basically harmless.
Professor Pappe proves that history shows that Israel does not want or ever wanted a 2 state solution, zionists do not want peace
I cried today for the People of Palestine, for their grief and trauma. For whatever good that will do. I also cried for my fellow citizens, 70% of whom want the murder and destruction of Gaza to stop, yet are powerless to make that happen. Despite our ostensible democracy, our representative government, that has tragically been stolen from us. In that theft we lost our, the People’s, power over our own wealth and technology. Now we witness its use to pointlessly kill the innocent and the powerless. This theft by the super wealthy cannot be tolerated. It is evil and threatens our lives and our Children’s lives. The future demands that we must have a functional democracy, NOW! If we don’t fix this the next Gaza will be here, the next crushing of life and order will be here in the USA. And we will deserve it.
As usual, Chris Hedges hits all the nails on their heads. The entire article is worth the quotes by Yeshayahu Leibowitz.
Why are you HERE? If you do not like Mr Hedges - MOVE ON!
It is his show. I enjoy all of his episodes. I would take that up with him directly.
Such a nightmare and a shame what the United States is doing. I learned more from this interview. Thank you. People my age here in the US are engrossed in fantasy football and aren’t paying attention to much. They kind of know the world is a mess but they just figure there’s nothing they can do and they aren’t going to do anything but focus on their own situation. Many still say “Trump is worse than Biden.” I’d say Biden’s had more opportunity in office to do more damage. I think of George Carlin’s quotes; “we’re barely outta the jungle on this planet.” Ordinary Jungle beasts. Savages.” “Semi-civilized beings..with baseball caps & automatic weapons.” It’s fundamentally about greed and a lack of space, land. Even with plenty of room someone wants to conquer your land. And As professor IIan states; “doomed to fail from the beginning.” Gaza is so small geographically and so densely populated. The United States is going to be hated by Ukrainians, hated by more middle easterners. As Chris says; “a pariah nation.” The climate disaster may be our ultimate demise. As another Carlin quote; “the earth is doing fine, it’s the people who are fkd. We’re just a surface problem to the earth.” “The earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas.”
Thank You Chris!
If Israel does completely consume all of the West Bank and Gaza strip and manages to eliminate most of the Palestinians, how many think Israel will simply there land grab? Won't they continue to consume greater portions of land using the slogans "security" and the "right to self defense" to justify what they are doing.
Thanks for bringing Pappe in to discuss this. I rely on both of you to better understand Israel/Palestine.
That said, I wish you'd had a chance to cover the possible ramifications of the ICJ case brought by RSA. I know it had not yet occurred at the time you taped this, but it was clearly coming.
While some dismiss any ICJ result as meaningless, I disagree. A provisional finding for RSA (it's theoretically possible) would significantly increase pressure on the Biden Admin., and Israel's reaction to the case shows they do not take it lightly.
Regardless of what happens on the ground in Gaza - whatever point of very tentative and weak stability is arrived at there militarily in the future - the key to all this is the American Street chipping away at US Israel policy, including the electoral removal of the Biden Admin. The RSA vs. Israel case could significantly advance the Street's efforts in the US and among "allies" in Europe.