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Ahnaf Ibn Qais's avatar

Thank You for all you do!

Palestine will be Free, & Zionism will end.

It has passed the South African Apartheid Even Horizon already. This means Bilateral sanctions, blockades, etc., are inevitable as the Pariah state Implodes Rhodesia style in mere months & years.

This is the future that 'Israel' has chosen via its Wanton Genocide of Palestinians.

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Ahnaf Ibn Qais's avatar

(For those interested)

If you wish to read (& listen!) to more of My commentary, here is my Main Stack:

https://thefallofthewest.substack.com

Thank You Kindly to everyone!

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JennyStokes's avatar

I cannot get this site unless I pay?

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Ahnaf Ibn Qais's avatar

You should be able to access it for Zero cost.

90% of the content is free.

There is some premium content, but it's only 10%. This is for Paid subscribers.

It is primarily Geopolitical Analysis & related issues.

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WealthyBarbarian's avatar

Seems to work fine for me when I go in!

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JennyStokes's avatar

Yeah. I had a look. More of the same!

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7swordMary's avatar

The Real News Network posts entire interviews: https://therealnews.com/

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browntsunami's avatar

God, I wish this to be true with all of my heart: however, as Mr. Sacco said "when you take the lid off on something like this, you never know where it goes". I am afraid it has become far more complex now.

Even though most of the Arab world seem content to sit and wait to see what is next, the periphery is going through a slow motion explosion. The whole swath of countries from Ukraine, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq and Yemen are embroiled in a war with a common foe (whether overtly or covertly) to one degree or another. The only outliers within this swath is Saudi Arabia, Armenia and Azerbaijan and these, I cannot see sitting on the fence very much longer. The usual suspects are fomenting trouble there in very obvious ways. I have not even begun to list the points of tension around the world.

When the dust is settled, I'm not sure there will be a happy ending for anyone.

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WWII's avatar

When the dust settles, it will likely be radioactive.

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browntsunami's avatar

Dark humor, just what the doctor ordered. Lol.

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Roy's avatar

Would like to see the benchmarks. Hedges has been a supporter of Palestinian cause for a long time. Not sure why anyone would be against someone in media focusing on what is currently happening in order to help people get a better understanding of what is going on since the usual misinformation, propaganda and lobbying campaigns are in full force to keep people from seeing and understanding the truth.

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JennyStokes's avatar

In my view: IF you know a subject you keep on working on it!

Caitlin does the same BUT no people begrudge her comments like they do Chris Hedges or Matt Taibbi.

Being a journalist means KNOWING the History.

Frankly the American people should be ashamed of what they have done by NOT voting (look up the records of voting in the US) While you were 'happy' in your endless buying you forgot to vote!

Thank you Chris.

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August West's avatar

“In my view: IF you know a subject you keep on working on it!”

Ask Sisyphus how that worked out.

American working classes voted in large numbers to twice elect the “audacity of hope” candidate and their lives got worse and increased the number of wars from two-seven. It’s risible and bantling like to believe voting for the roster of plutocratic candidates trotted out to preen and recite platitudes will change a damn thing.

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Frank Martens's avatar

I believe the American voters get exactly what they vote for.

You need to get over the two-party system and start a democratic process in which you give the one-third of the voters who presently don't vote something to vote for. Nearly every "democratic" country in the world has more than two parties, but not the States. The few people you have running as independents haven't got a hope in hell of getting elected. You have to change the system. It is blatantly undemocratic.

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Jody's avatar

In most states there are third party candidates on the ballot, but most voters have been convinced that a vote for any of them would be wasted. My thinking has long been the opposite -- that to vote for a main party candidate I find loathsome is more of a waste than to register my protest. If a large enough percentage of Americans were to vote third-party, I believe it could make a real difference.

Of course we also need to reform the whole corrupt system and find a way to make corporate power accountable to the people.

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Francis/Clare's avatar

It is wasted because these third party candidates never have experience at winning lower level elections and building support. You don't make running for president your first election ffs.

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Jody's avatar

We have to think long term. A vote for a main party candidate is a vote for the corrupt system and 100% guaranteed to elect someone we don’t want. Alternatively, if we vote 3rd-party, even if our chosen candidates don’t win in the current election cycle, if just 10-15% of us reliably voted 3rd party we could swing the election and the main parties would know our votes can no longer be taken for granted. And that could open up space for the people to start making demands and hold our elected officials accountable.

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Francis/Clare's avatar

Swing the election toward one of the D or R candidates though?

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August West's avatar

No shit Sherlock. Hope you did not stay up to late coming up with that incisive theory.

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Liz's avatar

So how do we "change the system". I'm all for it, but how?

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Julio Santos  "Nobody"'s avatar

No voting for candidates that are bribed. Besides reading independent reports of the previous public actions of the candidates and the amount of funding they received, I use my bribemeter at home which is collecting all the advertising of the candidates and then I reject those whose propaganda is bigger because it usually means greater funding usually by the lobbyists.

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Jody's avatar

We have to make a real effort and be willing to make some sacrifices, both as organized groups and as individuals. Refuse to vote for main party candidates who take bribes or “campaign contributions” from lobbies we disagree with. Make phone calls, write letters/emails, etc. Get involved in local politics and grassroots activism. Get involved in national and global activism. Boycott products and companies that don’t align with our values. Become more informed and spread the word. No one person can do everything, but commit to doing SOMETHING. And then pray :)

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JennyStokes's avatar

I absolutely agree with you Jody. I live in France and we have many party's to vote for. In the first round of voting it's fascinating to see who people voted for and who will get to the next round.

Unfortunately it's not working as well as it did most people want to go for a centrist candidate which is OK but not my choice.

2 weeks before each round of elections there are NO election ads. or speeches. Time to think clearly.

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Jan 19, 2024
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Liz's avatar

It's not a contest.

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Jan 19, 2024Edited
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JennyStokes's avatar

In your own words PITA ............he retired!

We get to a certain point in our lives and sometimes it is difficult to take in .....new words/thoughts etc.

How about you do some Journalism since you seem to know so much?

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Charles Main's avatar

PITA is more to be pitied than despised. He once worshipped every word Hedges wrote or spoke and so made the fatal mistake of taking his word for it in an early unexamined and essentially offhand comment, like so many others, supporting Covid vaccines when asked for his obviously non-medical opinion. Even most medical professionals made and still make the same mistake. PITA is now in his own little cult. Or else he just gets a kick out of doing this crap.

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John William Reitter's avatar

Excellent interview by Hedges with the greatest historical cartoonist in America. But the word "cartoonist" is not broad or deep enough to describe Joe Sacco's unique type of artistic journalism. Perhaps "portraits of truth" would be closer to the impact of Sacco's work. It belongs in all the major museums of the world, and in every library, theatre, high school and university as required reading. His books are national treasures that should be featured prominently in the Smithsonian in Washington, DC! What do you think?

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Michael Scott's avatar

Agreed. I resort to the French “Bande Dessinée” along with Graphic Novel, as well as Editorial Cartoonist for the wonderful wry / merciless comment and visual storytelling of very popular and successful greats such as the Baltimore Sun&Economist’s Kevin Kallagher “KAL” and the former Guardian’s Steve Bell- who fired a month ago after the Zionist lobby and paper management accused him of antisemitism for a cartoon early in October after the 7th lampooning Netanyahu.

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Michael Scott's avatar

Le Monde’s Plantu was a comparable great and often scathing editorial cartoonist

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jim harper's avatar

Thanks Chris and Joe. Just today Al Jazeera had a picture for your next political work of art. A teenaged boy in the West Bank was shot, wounded and tied by the feet and dragged behind a jeep, thrown in an alley and first aid blocked by IDF Nazi's, and left to bleed out! A hybrid nation of Apartheid/Jim Crow and a Master Race/Chosen People and Religious Zionist Eugenics! The other hideous picture in Gaza is 19 Palestinian men shot in the back after being stripped and searched! I can't believe my Canadian government supports this fascist government even when their Genocidal words of intent are OBVIOUS! Like in the US millions of LIBERALS are marching in the streets, while the leaders we elected tow the line for Zionist Fascism. Covered over by weasel words of disgusting regurgitated words of the most juvenile hasbara! Justin was elected because of his last name. His father Pierre Elliot Trudeau was demonized in the 60's and 70's because he was way ahead of his time said "the state has no business in the bedroom of the nation" over gay rights and archaic sex laws. He denounced Imperialism and US hegemony and spoke out against the Vietnam war. Going so far as to give sanctuary to US Conscientious Objectors smeared with the "Draft Dodger" label. People don't speak much about them now, but many many stayed and brought up families here. When he was in Buckingham Palace, he was caught clowning the pomp and circumstance gave a pirouette, about the phony clowns called King or Queen. Where are all the leaders with balls? Check out his quotes like " It is wonderful to be despised, if, deep down we know we are right". Those in power today cling to power even when they know they are wrong, and disguise it with lies!

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Julio Santos  "Nobody"'s avatar

yes, they "cling to power" the power of letting them to be bribed.

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Izzatso's avatar

Jim, didn't you ever learn to write using paragraphs? Don't you understand what a paragraph does and what it's for? Google it, then re-write your monolithic paragraph.

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jim harper's avatar

Well excuse me IS A Asso. Do you notice the Palestinian's being slaughtered? The MONOLITHIC murders, shrouded in front of mass pits, crushed under piles of rubble, targeted by drones, dragged by the feet, shot in the back with hands tied, beaten, tortured, humiliated? You may be an English "scholar", but your anal "paragraph policing" is laughable! Do you spend the day reading newspapers, missing the point and freaking out about "P"s and "Q"s?

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Jeanie McEachern's avatar

do try to relieve yourself, sir contrarian, of your whiney, self-centred, brat-child puerility. hedges , as w/ everyone on this planet including you, can only advocate on behalf of a a limited number of the world's victims, and he can only fight a limited number of battles, lest he lose his effectiveness. slide off your contrarian saddle and fight the battles you align your bellicose persona w/ yourself. take charge of your own future. how shameful that you should expect hedges to fight your feckless battles for you. it is disgraceful that you do not take responsibility for those belligerent issues which are most meaningful to you. are you a child? hedges' most urgent work is now and rightly so, focussed on the helpless palestinians being slaughtered as i write. i importune you to do likewise. your cattywumpus values are those of a self-serving , runcible, pettifoggering fopdoodle. are you, or your helpless women and children being slaughtered as i write, as are the palestinians? are you being starved to death like the palestinians? denied food, water, power, and a safe haven in which to protect yourself and your family from the unrelenting zionist israeli bombs as are the palestinians? are you being deprived of your human rights as are the palestinians? is your home being bombed into rubble as are the helpless palestinians' homes? i suspect not. and if not, why don't you stop your folderol nescience and selfih balderdash. step up to the plate, and help hedges write about, lobby for, and advocate on behalf of the desperate palestinians whose survival needs are far more urgent than yours, sir contrarian.

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Izzatso's avatar

Jeanie, didn't you ever learn to write using paragraphs? Don't you understand what a paragraph does and what it's for? Google it, then re-write your monolithic paragraph.

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Sloan Bashinsky's avatar

Izsatso, Jeannie would get A+ in any real English course I took In college for what she wrote, because of its uniqueness and downright piercing message, but what I wonder is, if you and Jeanie see that Hamas, after figuring out it couldn’t defeat Israel militarily, hoped Israel would respond at it did to Oct. 7, to get people like Chris Hedges and you and Jeanie to be its voice to try to turn the entire world against Israel?

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Jeanie McEachern's avatar

perhaps sloan, but i hesitate to presume or prognosticate, post- or quondam to an action taken or a mission undertaken, what the motivating factors were. you are likely aware that HAMAS was inchoately funded by the israeli govt in the 1980s as a 'belligeratti' antidote to the PLO. you are also likely aware that up to one-third of the oct. 7th corpses were israeli citizens slaughtered by their own IDF, as per the dictates of the zionist 'hannibal directive'.

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Sloan Bashinsky's avatar

I know about that, and I am aware the Hamas launched the Oct 7, and if you try to convince me that Israel paid on invited Hamas to launch the Oct 7, I will think you are loco :-). Hamas didn’t give a tinkers damn what happened to the people of Gaza, otherwise it would not have done what it did on Oct 7, knowing Israel would retaliate disproportionately in Gaza. Have you seen this recent Guardian article?

**************

Evidence points to systematic use of rape and sexual violence by Hamas in 7 October attacks

Guardian aware of sexual assaults for which multiple corroborating pieces of evidence exist

Warning: contains graphic descriptions

10:00 EST Thursday, 18 January 2024

In videos from 7 October, the body of a young woman is lying face down in the back of a pickup truck, stripped to her underwear, one leg bent at an unnatural angle. One of the men sitting next to her pulls her long hair as armed men around him shout praises to God.

Footage of the lifeless corpse of Shani Louk, a 22-year-old Israeli-German national, paraded around the streets of Gaza was some of the first to surface on 7 October, as the scale of the horror visited on sleeping families in kibbutzim neighbouring the strip and people partying at a nearby rave started to become clear.

In the more than three months since the unprecedented attack by the Palestinian group Hamas, the atrocities the militants committed have been well documented. Israel is still grappling with the trauma: entire families burned alive, torture and mutilation, children and elderly people ripped from the arms of their loved ones, seized as hostages.

Emergency responders risked their lives in the fighting on 7 October and several days afterwards to rescue the wounded and retrieve the dead. The chaos meant there were significant failings in preserving evidence of gender-based violence and what is coming to be seen as the systematic use of rape as a weapon of war by Hamas.

Israel’s top police investigations unit, Lahav 433, is still poring over 50,000 pieces of visual evidence and 1,500 witness testimonies, and says it is unable to put a number on how many women and girls suffered gender-based violence.

By cross-referencing testimonies given to police, published interviews with witnesses, and photo and video footage taken by survivors and first responders, the Guardian is aware of at least six sexual assaults for which multiple corroborating pieces of evidence exist. Two of those victims, who were murdered, were aged under 18.

At least seven women who were killed were also raped in the attack, according to Prof Ruth Halperin-Kaddari, a legal scholar and international women’s rights advocate, from her examination of evidence so far. The New York Times and NBC have both identified more than 30 killed women and girls whose bodies bear signs of abuse, such as bloodied genitals and missing clothes, and according to the Israeli welfare ministry, five women and one man have come forward seeking help for sexual abuse over the past few months.

In the immediate aftermath of the attack, overwhelmed by the sheer number of victims, and the burned or disfigured state of some of the bodies, morgues were preoccupied with identification and did not have the time or capacity to test for sexual assault using rape kits, said the police spokesperson Mirit Ben Mayor. Lack of trained personnel was also a problem: according to the Israeli daily Haaretz, there are only seven forensic pathologists in the entire country.

Zaka, Israel’s emergency response organisation, usually works in cooperation with police at the scenes of terrorist attacks so the authorities can gather evidence before Zaka removes the bodies. Many have said since the attack that they wished they had realised at the time that, although they were trying to treat the dead with respect, they were also contaminating crime scenes. Most Zaka workers are conservative ultra-Orthodox men: several have said that they “didn’t think of rape at all”.

The victims’ bodies were also released as quickly as possible from morgues to their families for the swift burial required by Jewish tradition, and crucial evidence buried with them.

Some posthumous forensic examination is still possible, but it is unlikely that the full extent of the gender-based violence committed on 7 October will ever be known.

The Guardian spoke to a Zaka volunteer, Simcha Greeneman, who said in one kibbutz he had come across a woman who was naked from the waist down, bent over a bed and shot in the back of the head. In another house, he discovered a dead woman with sharp objects in her vagina, including nails.

At the Shura military base in central Israel, where most of the dead were taken, the reservist Shari Mendes, who was tasked with washing the female bodies and preparing them for burial, told reporters: “We have seen women who have been raped, from the age of children through to the elderly.

“We were in such a state of shock … Many young women arrived in bloody shrouded rags with just their underwear, and the underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw several soldiers who were shot on the crotch, intimate parts, vagina or shot in the breasts,” she added.

The most detailed witness account of rape is from a young woman who attended the Supernova music festival, where more than 350 young people were killed. The witness, who was shot in the back, said she was hiding in vegetation just off route 232 when a large group of Hamas gunmen arrived, who between them raped and killed at least five women.

“They laid a woman down and I understood that he is raping her … They passed her on to another person,” she told police in a video reviewed by the Guardian. “And he cuts her breast, he throws it on the road and they are playing with it.”

For more Guardian journalism follow this channel

Follow the Guardian

One raped woman was “shredded to pieces” and another “stabbed repeatedly in the back while she was being raped”, the same witness said in an interview with the New York Times. The witness has provided police with photographs of her hiding place, and another survivor hiding in the same spot has testified that he saw at least one woman being raped.

One of the festival’s organisers, Rami Shmuel, who returned to the scene the day after the attack, has described finding the bodies of three young women “naked from the waist down, legs spread”.

“One had the face burnt,” he said. Another was “shot in the face” while the last had been “shot all over the lower part of her body”.

One woman who survived gang rape at the rave was being treated for severe mental and physical trauma, police said, and was in no condition to speak to investigators.

In addition to the gender-based violence committed on 7 October, there are worries for the safety of the women still in Hamas captivity in Gaza.

Renana Eitan, the head of psychiatry at the Ichilov Tel Aviv medical centre, previously told the Guardian that of the 14 freed hostages still under her care – including children – several had been subjected to or witnessed sexual abuse. The US state department has said that the week-long truce between Israel and Hamas in November broke down because the militants refused to release the remaining women in its custody, over fears they would speak publicly about sexual violence.

Orit Sulitzeanu, the director of the Association of Rape Crisis Centers in Israel, said: “Everyone is looking for that golden piece of evidence, a woman survivor who testifies publicly about what happened to her. But think about it: someone suffering with that kind of trauma, why would they put themselves through that? Sexual violence is underreported everywhere. This is no different.

“I don’t think it is currently in the survivors’ best interests to go to the police, and I think the investigations into all the atrocities are going to take a very long time.”

Rape and sexual assault are considered war crimes and a breach of international humanitarian law. Hamas has denied the accusations of sexual violence.

On Monday, UN-appointed independent experts said that “given the number of victims and the extensive premeditation and planning of the attacks”, mounting evidence of rapes and genital mutilation pointed to possible crimes against humanity.

Israeli intelligence officials, experts and sources with direct knowledge of interrogation reports of captured Hamas fighters believe units that attacked were beforehand given a text that drew on a controversial and contested interpretation of traditional Islamic military jurisprudence, claiming that captives were “the spoils of war”. This potentially legitimised the abduction of civilians and other abuses, without being an explicit instruction to do so.

In at least two unsourced videos of interrogations of alleged Hamas members, which Israeli officials say they did not authorise for release, the men are heard talking about instructions given to rape women.

Linking suspects in custody to specific crimes was likely to be very difficult, Halperin-Kaddari said, although Israel intends to open criminal proceedings as soon as possible.

Individual victims will be able to file complaints amounting to crimes against humanity charges against Hamas at the international criminal court in The Hague, and the court is also expected to open a specific investigation into sexual violence on 7 October.

Halperin-Kaddari said: “An international investigation has more potential because the level of evidence is not as high as that in criminal proceedings, where you have to have a specific individual and specific victim and prove what happened beyond all reasonable doubt.

“To prosecute the overall scope of the atrocities and the degree of cruelty … We have enough for that already.”

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Freddie Ahmad's avatar

Thank you for highlight the hardships Palestinian s experience while the world remains silent

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Anthony G. Gelbert's avatar

"The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty?" ~ Bertrand Russell

Message to the Zionist Hagee Heretics who embrace the "Evangelical Christian" PERVERTED gospel of Christ, that in DIRECT OPPOSITION to Christ's Matthew 7:12 Commandment ("Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets."), SUPPORTS Israeli atrocities in Gaza, these words from Paul the Apostle APPLY:

Galatians Chapter 1

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The U.S. Congress is, with a few exceptions, a stinking cesspool of special interest, the chief one now being the support of Israel in a project that bears an amazing resemblance to the pogroms, ethnic cleansing and genocide that the Jewish people endured throughout history.

It's the Social Darwinism!

Learn WHY:

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/who-can-you-trust/corruption-in-government/msg1119/#msg1119

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Jody's avatar

Thank you! Just watched on another platform. Tremendous interview.

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JennyStokes's avatar

Can you please give me a link?

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Jody's avatar

Didn’t know we were allowed to post links but I will try.... https://youtu.be/Y3sH87DEydg?si=Xd3tczn2X2_ERBMu

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JennyStokes's avatar

Thanks Jody.

Will watch tomorrow.

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Shaza Anderson's avatar

Thank you so much for this interview! The truth needs to be heard and it is very much needed!

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Jazzme's avatar

Can Americans handle context. Context requires reading /undertanding what preceeded Oct7

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Lexine's avatar

Fantastic work. Just bought my son his book Palestine for Christmas. Sad to hear things could get worse. 💔💔💔

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Ro Bear's avatar

If it were simply a bad lot of Israeli leaders & those in the U.S. who clamor for, are complicit in & commit the worst crimes against humanity then that would be terrible enough. For an overwhelming majority of the Israeli people to back such behavior is shocking enough. That so many others worldwide support the Zionist project, knowingly or not, or remain silent or look away indifferently to me is a warning for all that humanity is regressing very far very fast.

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Anthony G. Gelbert's avatar

This series of graphics I made describe the Red Sea situation over the last couple of weeks and the ethically bankrupt US response to Sansallah courageous Suez Canal blocking activity in protest of Israeli IDF Genocide of Palestinians in Gaza:

January 9, 2024

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-090124164340.jpeg

January 12 2024 US and UK attack Yemen Sanasallah Houthis

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120124120319.png

January 15, 2024

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-160124010044.jpeg

January 16, 2024

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-160124162546.jpeg

Biden alternative Facts Twilight Zone:

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-120124130536.jpeg

January 17, 2024

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-170124191915.jpeg

January 18, 2024

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-180124192155.jpeg

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Anthony G. Gelbert's avatar

I just read more evidence that the Zionists are SADISTS:

January 19, 2024 REPORT from Spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Ravina Shamdasani (who just visited Gaza): The IDF is even banning stone fruit from coming into Gaza! The IDF claims that "Israel is banning stone fruit because they can be used to plant trees."

IF THAT ISN'T PROOF OF GENOCIDAL STARVATION INTENT AGAINST PALESTINIANS, I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS!!! Her UN Report includes interviews with Palestinian men who had been detained by IDF and just been released wearing ONLY DIAPERS in the cold. These men gave evidence of IDF brutal treatment. One man stated he had not been given access to a shower but once in 55 DAYS.

https://soberthinking.createaforum.com/gallery/soberthinking/1-190124171145.png

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Joy in HK's avatar

There must be a permanent ceasefire in Gaza, not with Palestinians suffering under oppressive conditions, but as a place where all live with peace and equality. It is time for Pope Francis to do more than talk. He must go to Gaza and make a stand for peace and freedom.

Please sign the petition and share widely.

https://chng.it/CRQ7qw4Gzn

More petitions:

To support the application by South Africa to the ICJ

https://chng.it/5fMpQxbcZW

Codepink:

https://www.codepink.org/cnngaza?utm_campaign=12_15_pali_update_alert_3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=codepink

Ceasefire Now

https://www.change.org/p/sign-and-share-this-urgent-petition-calling-for-a-ceasefirenow-in-gaza-and-israel

These are a few small things we can do. If we can do more, let us do more.

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Izzatso's avatar

Thank you. Done. But keep in mind, The Tribe is now so emboldened that they can condemn the Pope, University Presidents, Progressive Politicians, Religious Clergy, and anyone who comes to a different moral conclusion that it does, and get away with it? Who or what has created such a political monster as the Jewish Tribe? How do we destroy the grip this Tribe has on most all of Western society?

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