Former member of the Greek parliament and Minister of Finance Yanis Varoufakis joins host Chris Hedges on this episode of The Chris Hedges Report to explain how capitalism is dead and technofeudalism is here.
Chris and Yanis are among the most outstanding journalists I have followed for years. Their unwavering commitment to truth and journalistic excellence is truly remarkable. You both embody the true essence of a gentleman.
Thank you both so much. I've been struggling to follow the works of Mr. Varoufakis since he emerged on the world stage during the Greek crisis following the 2008 meltdown. Mr. Hedges, your mastering, or reading with laser-focused attention, the work being discussed, coupled with the skill you've developed over the many years of practicing journalism and the art of the interview, has enabled me to (to some extent) wrap my head around some of this stuff.
I have been waiting for a while now for these two guys to have a conversation together about anything at all. Haven't listened to it yet but it should be the perfect subject.
Well, it was as anticipated a great conversation. Mr. Hedges always asks the right questions, and Mr. Varoufakis has a great thesis here about Techno-feudalism. It makes a lot of sense.
Having read the excellent book, I still wanted to listen to this conversation because I understood most but not all of the book's technofeudal analysis. And with the rise of the billionaire (mostly Zionist) tech elite, compounded by the propensity of naive Americans to hero-worship them, I feel more like a serf in this society than I ever have. Having always felt enslaved by status quo thinking, I now have digital overseers to continually remind me of that fact. So many moments during my day when I want to take a hammer to them. One thing I refuse to do is use assistants like Siri or Alexa, which is to my mind an extra affirmation of my serfdom.
Great report. the following formula is worth studying and mulling over:
"Chris Heges: ...How do we recapture our own autonomy and control over the economy?
Yanis Varoufakis
Through combining traditional collective action with cloud capital. We need to use the weapons, the tools of the enemy. We always did. The Marxist left was never about destroying the machines, it was always about taking over them..."
i'd been hoping for mr hedges to interview mr varoufakis for some time! dream come true!
i admire - and draw much courage from - your pertinent analyses of everything that needs fixing in our global northern world of unfathomable greed, disdain + indifference to their CON_sequences ...
great and very helpful discussion. I don't find his book on Techno-Feudalism the easiest of reads but Chris's intensive read of the book and subsequent questions really helped
Of course included is the requisite doctrinaire leftist objection to what they all too easily dismiss as identity politics (or economics.) A tired theme made all the more aggravating when asserted by well-off white men who've never had to fight for recognition. Nor, for that matter, ever lifted a tool in their lives. I was a blue collar rank and file union activist for close to 30 years. I'm also BIPOC and LGBTQ. We're not ceding ourselves any more than Fanny Lou Hamer or Cesar Chavez did.
In a post-Einstein, post Heisenberg reality, the old Aristotelian either/or isn't enough. How about recognizing both/and?! Or many? A good example is the old style Populists and their farmer-labor coalition. Neither side was expected to give up what they were in the name of some higher authority. Nor expected to defer to their learned betters.
Notice also what's not included. What does freedom, or the form favored by right wingers, liberty, really mean? Not being oppressed, sure...but that's vague. Reality is with economics considered as the rational center of human life, you have all the freedom you can afford.
Again the error of the left hemisphere of the human brain, dominant since the Enlightenment. Whether left or right politically, it wants linearity, quantifiable bits, abstractions, certainty, and control. In contrast, the right hemisphere, which is about gestalt, flow, uniqueness, context, and possibility. It also processes through symbols and metaphors--and what is most important, seeks after meaning.
To put it somewhat in econ terms, here's part of the intro to economist Herman Daly's 1992 book Beyond Growth. Thinking like this got his economist's epaulets revoked. "All traditional religions are enemies of that same modern idolatry--that accidental man, through economic growth based on science and technology, is the true creator, and that the natural world is just a pile of instrumental, accidental stuff to be used up in the arbitrary projects of one purposeless species. If we cannot assert a more coherent cosmology than that, we might as well close the store and go fishing--at least while the fish last."
I think the criticism of Janos examples on bathrooms etc. was far more narrow than your criticism acknowledges. There are legitimate debates about moral priorities that Janos is pointing to. Bathroom policies and questions of who can compete in women's sports based on self identity falls far short in moral importance of the issues raised by genocide in Gaza. Liberty without moral priorities has many dangers. Voting for Harris might get you what you want on the lesser moral issue while consigning others to brutal starvation and mass slaughter.
While I rankle at the society's over-use of the left-brain/ right-brain duality (given that biologically it's more complex), it does still work metaphorically, and either way, Herman Daly's is a voice that should be far more prominent, given the way we treat natural systems, whose dynamics show them to be far more intelligent than they're commonly portrayed. Thanks for the reminder. Wish everyone would read Beyond Growth and also Merlin Sheldrake's Entangled Life (aka, the brilliance of fungi).
What I'm referring to is no mere New Age superficiality nor merely metaphor. Look up Dr. Iain McGilchrist; lots in print and YouTube. Especially his 1579 pp magnum opus from 2021 //The Matter with Things (Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World)// two vol. with 197pp of references in very fine print. I watched a recent talk (at Ralston University) where he said he was surprised when people said his research impacted (or should) pol. and econ. I'm in his quarterly discussion groups and I'm in the process of writing to him before the next one because to me, the pol/econ link was obvious.
McGilchrist was a UK prof. of English Lit, Romantic Era expertise. It bothered him that rational analysis of any artform didn't work; there was an elusive something that made a work great. So he went to medical school, becoming a psychiatrist specializing in neuroscience. Therefore he's an example of how to use R & L effectively. BTW, he defends Rupert Sheldrake, (Merlin's father) who called into question many scientific assumptions as to what isn't possible.
As for Merlin Sheldrake, I have his book and several like it by reputable scientists on the subject of what may roughly be called plant intelligence. Also many on the prevalence of biological/botanical symbioses. The example of mycorrhizae alone makes cooperation the dominant mode of life on Earth and there are others. I saw pol/econ implications. Late in life (mid '90s; I was 49) I went back to school; BS in Botany (Forestry minor,) specialty in fungal soil ecology. But having been raised with Pac NW Native culture, much of the plant stuff was putting scientific names on what I already knew. While retaining the scientifically verboten knowledge of how to connect to a sort of plant consciousness. I was invited, but didn't continue in grad school because I could not accept the scientific dogma of evolution defined as purposeless and random. In the last decade, that required belief has become very much less so.
Yes, I recall Rupert's morphic resonance stuff very well. And I fully subscribe to plant, fungal and colonial bacterial intelligence, whether you're talking in terms of a consciousness that seems elusive to folks or are trying to get more rigorous in terms of complex adaptive system dynamics that sound even more elusive.
Varoufakis is a brilliant and clear-thinking economist and political thinker. I'd be interested to hear Chris's views as a Christian minister giving a theological view on what we've just heard.
wow - what an eye opener - Yannis manages to tease out and make clear so many things that one suspected but couldn't quite grasp - he outlines the mechanisms - both deliberate and accidental - by which we got to where we are today.
Chris and Yanis are among the most outstanding journalists I have followed for years. Their unwavering commitment to truth and journalistic excellence is truly remarkable. You both embody the true essence of a gentleman.
Thank you both so much. I've been struggling to follow the works of Mr. Varoufakis since he emerged on the world stage during the Greek crisis following the 2008 meltdown. Mr. Hedges, your mastering, or reading with laser-focused attention, the work being discussed, coupled with the skill you've developed over the many years of practicing journalism and the art of the interview, has enabled me to (to some extent) wrap my head around some of this stuff.
Cheers
I have been waiting for a while now for these two guys to have a conversation together about anything at all. Haven't listened to it yet but it should be the perfect subject.
Well, it was as anticipated a great conversation. Mr. Hedges always asks the right questions, and Mr. Varoufakis has a great thesis here about Techno-feudalism. It makes a lot of sense.
Having read the excellent book, I still wanted to listen to this conversation because I understood most but not all of the book's technofeudal analysis. And with the rise of the billionaire (mostly Zionist) tech elite, compounded by the propensity of naive Americans to hero-worship them, I feel more like a serf in this society than I ever have. Having always felt enslaved by status quo thinking, I now have digital overseers to continually remind me of that fact. So many moments during my day when I want to take a hammer to them. One thing I refuse to do is use assistants like Siri or Alexa, which is to my mind an extra affirmation of my serfdom.
Great report. the following formula is worth studying and mulling over:
"Chris Heges: ...How do we recapture our own autonomy and control over the economy?
Yanis Varoufakis
Through combining traditional collective action with cloud capital. We need to use the weapons, the tools of the enemy. We always did. The Marxist left was never about destroying the machines, it was always about taking over them..."
thank you both!
i'd been hoping for mr hedges to interview mr varoufakis for some time! dream come true!
i admire - and draw much courage from - your pertinent analyses of everything that needs fixing in our global northern world of unfathomable greed, disdain + indifference to their CON_sequences ...
great and very helpful discussion. I don't find his book on Techno-Feudalism the easiest of reads but Chris's intensive read of the book and subsequent questions really helped
omg.
.
THANK YOU, Gentlemen
for an horrific analysis of
Capitalism, Stage GONE
.
"... and what kind of conversations were you having
where you mentioned particular products or
companies that you may have bought
shares in, in the morning when
you went to work... "
.
every statement
a Commodity
for sales Or
blackmails
.
& we
bought
into this
Willingly tho
(mostly) blindly.
Of course included is the requisite doctrinaire leftist objection to what they all too easily dismiss as identity politics (or economics.) A tired theme made all the more aggravating when asserted by well-off white men who've never had to fight for recognition. Nor, for that matter, ever lifted a tool in their lives. I was a blue collar rank and file union activist for close to 30 years. I'm also BIPOC and LGBTQ. We're not ceding ourselves any more than Fanny Lou Hamer or Cesar Chavez did.
In a post-Einstein, post Heisenberg reality, the old Aristotelian either/or isn't enough. How about recognizing both/and?! Or many? A good example is the old style Populists and their farmer-labor coalition. Neither side was expected to give up what they were in the name of some higher authority. Nor expected to defer to their learned betters.
Notice also what's not included. What does freedom, or the form favored by right wingers, liberty, really mean? Not being oppressed, sure...but that's vague. Reality is with economics considered as the rational center of human life, you have all the freedom you can afford.
Again the error of the left hemisphere of the human brain, dominant since the Enlightenment. Whether left or right politically, it wants linearity, quantifiable bits, abstractions, certainty, and control. In contrast, the right hemisphere, which is about gestalt, flow, uniqueness, context, and possibility. It also processes through symbols and metaphors--and what is most important, seeks after meaning.
To put it somewhat in econ terms, here's part of the intro to economist Herman Daly's 1992 book Beyond Growth. Thinking like this got his economist's epaulets revoked. "All traditional religions are enemies of that same modern idolatry--that accidental man, through economic growth based on science and technology, is the true creator, and that the natural world is just a pile of instrumental, accidental stuff to be used up in the arbitrary projects of one purposeless species. If we cannot assert a more coherent cosmology than that, we might as well close the store and go fishing--at least while the fish last."
I think the criticism of Janos examples on bathrooms etc. was far more narrow than your criticism acknowledges. There are legitimate debates about moral priorities that Janos is pointing to. Bathroom policies and questions of who can compete in women's sports based on self identity falls far short in moral importance of the issues raised by genocide in Gaza. Liberty without moral priorities has many dangers. Voting for Harris might get you what you want on the lesser moral issue while consigning others to brutal starvation and mass slaughter.
While I rankle at the society's over-use of the left-brain/ right-brain duality (given that biologically it's more complex), it does still work metaphorically, and either way, Herman Daly's is a voice that should be far more prominent, given the way we treat natural systems, whose dynamics show them to be far more intelligent than they're commonly portrayed. Thanks for the reminder. Wish everyone would read Beyond Growth and also Merlin Sheldrake's Entangled Life (aka, the brilliance of fungi).
What I'm referring to is no mere New Age superficiality nor merely metaphor. Look up Dr. Iain McGilchrist; lots in print and YouTube. Especially his 1579 pp magnum opus from 2021 //The Matter with Things (Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World)// two vol. with 197pp of references in very fine print. I watched a recent talk (at Ralston University) where he said he was surprised when people said his research impacted (or should) pol. and econ. I'm in his quarterly discussion groups and I'm in the process of writing to him before the next one because to me, the pol/econ link was obvious.
McGilchrist was a UK prof. of English Lit, Romantic Era expertise. It bothered him that rational analysis of any artform didn't work; there was an elusive something that made a work great. So he went to medical school, becoming a psychiatrist specializing in neuroscience. Therefore he's an example of how to use R & L effectively. BTW, he defends Rupert Sheldrake, (Merlin's father) who called into question many scientific assumptions as to what isn't possible.
As for Merlin Sheldrake, I have his book and several like it by reputable scientists on the subject of what may roughly be called plant intelligence. Also many on the prevalence of biological/botanical symbioses. The example of mycorrhizae alone makes cooperation the dominant mode of life on Earth and there are others. I saw pol/econ implications. Late in life (mid '90s; I was 49) I went back to school; BS in Botany (Forestry minor,) specialty in fungal soil ecology. But having been raised with Pac NW Native culture, much of the plant stuff was putting scientific names on what I already knew. While retaining the scientifically verboten knowledge of how to connect to a sort of plant consciousness. I was invited, but didn't continue in grad school because I could not accept the scientific dogma of evolution defined as purposeless and random. In the last decade, that required belief has become very much less so.
Yes, I recall Rupert's morphic resonance stuff very well. And I fully subscribe to plant, fungal and colonial bacterial intelligence, whether you're talking in terms of a consciousness that seems elusive to folks or are trying to get more rigorous in terms of complex adaptive system dynamics that sound even more elusive.
Hi Chris, I again request - is there an alternative means to support you and receive your work, rather than through substack?
Substack recently partnered with the Free Press - a pro-war propaganda rag run by Bari Weiss.
Additionally - I just learned that Substack uses Stripe as its payment processor: https://faq.substack.com/p/how-do-paid-subscriptions-on-substack. I am attempting to boycott Stripe, due to its CEO's support for Israel. More info here: https://www.middleeasteye.net/trending/calls-boycott-tech-company-stripe-after-ceo-posts-recent-visit-israel
deserves to be read again & again, maybe we can be salvaged. There's still hope; find a passion besides money. DO GOOD!
Brilliantly insightful 👏
Mind blown. Railing against the excesses of capitalism while capitalism ceases to exist.
Thank you! I have been following him for a while. Fantastic to see/hear you together in conversation.
Varoufakis is a brilliant and clear-thinking economist and political thinker. I'd be interested to hear Chris's views as a Christian minister giving a theological view on what we've just heard.
wow - what an eye opener - Yannis manages to tease out and make clear so many things that one suspected but couldn't quite grasp - he outlines the mechanisms - both deliberate and accidental - by which we got to where we are today.