Do you want to have a bizarre experience? Read Chris Hedges’ excellent article here, with its facts and logic, and then tune in to, say, CNN, and listen to the worthless talking heads discuss this “peace plan” as if it’s serious and significant, and not just another exercise in pretending to take action when no action is being allowed. You’ll feel as if you’ve just landed in the Bizarro World.
In line with the talking heads reciting the hasbara-ist scripts provided them, there was the parallel campaign in the media, broadcast and print, to note the 2nd anniversary of Oct. 7th along purely Israeli lines, e.g., "Hamas' terrorist attack on Oct. 7th" completely devoid of the century of Palestinian suffering and displacement at the hands of the Ashkenazis/Israelis.
A particularly shameless example of this was by the editor of the editorial page of the Boston Globe himself James Dao, titled "Israel's fractured soul." The title alone should tell you where this is heading - in the spirit of "that's enough about you, let's talk about me now," Dao expended nearly 4,000 words profiling the anguish Israelis from various stations in that warped society were experiencing now that the complacency of the "good life" they had been enjoying - which of course entailed obliviousness toward the Palestinians - was forever shattered on Oct. 7th.
Typical of Dao's focus - and Israelis' self-absorption - was this passage about a woman originally from Britain. "She fell in love with Israel after multiple visits and decided to move here to raise a family 18 years ago. She abhors the war, but said that she also feels anguish when her progressive friends back home lash out at Israel as a genocidal state. 'Our beautiful country has become a pariah state,' she told me."
Of note is that this was the only reference to the genocide in Dao' entire piece, in line with his near-total ahistorical ignorance of Palestine over the past two years despite presumably having the information and resources of his paper at his disposal with which to educate himself about what's been going on.
A really nice touch is that at the end of his Rick Steves-like travelogue through Israeli society he witlessly(?), blithely(?), unselfconsciously(?), brazenly(?) added this line "Reporting for this piece was sponsored in part by the American Middle East Press Association." Of course, AMEPA says, it is "focused on fostering a deeper understanding of Israel and enhancing comprehensive coverage of Israel within the broader context of the Middle East among American media," whatever that last phrase means.
So there you have it, a highly placed figure in the major newspaper in a major US media market devoting a lengthy, insipid piece prioritizing the self-indulgent anguish of living Israelis over the 100s of thousands of Palestinian dead, maimed, diminished in life prospects. The icing on the cake being his violation on just about every count of the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists. Quite a tour de farce.
Your example of Dao is the example of most 'western media.'
A bunch of putrid disgusting liars and nazi (israeli) apologists who value money and position over morality/humanity and telling the truth, which is their literal job.
Can't WAIT to see what kinds of hoops and mental gymnastics they use to try and make us forget this horror that they've FACILITATED with their lies. They should be prosecuted for genocide denial, incitement to genocide with their lies and at the very least lose their licenses/press badges for defrauding the public. Personally, I'd prefer they were dropped into Gaza for a little refresher on what their job is supposed to be, and then left to rot there.
May every gd one of them burn in the flames of hell. Yeah, sounds good but I want semi-instant karma where these craven dogturds burn in the flames of public rage in the here and now. But NO!!! The worst of them are rewarded: a lying genocidal nazi psychopath who fomented extermination proudly and publicly runs cbs 60 minutes now.
Yours likely the greater, I'm beginning to worry mine is actually undergoing physical changes due to some portions being overly engaged over the past two years - with no end in sight - while the pleasure centers shrivel. It might be interesting to see what an MRI or PET scan or whatever it is that depicts brain activity reveals. But of course, along with vaccines, that wouldn't be covered by insurance.
Your mind, like mine, sees this horror for what it is. A hideous unwarranted apocalypse.
You think your brain is shriveled from grief, rage and disbelief? So is mine... we are of a mind, maybe only half a mind between the 2 of us, and yet here we are with our dessicated, shriveled, mashed gray matter and we can still see the horror for what it is.
I had that visceral feeling after the Oct 7 attack on the music festival. "What sort of society would hold a music festival next to the wall holding back the indigenous people of the land you consider your own."
It wasn't that the attack wasn't horrific........it was just that the utter lack of consciousness of where in fact they were....must have made what they suddenly faced seem incomprehensible.
Our species capacity for self delusion may be infinite.
I was nauseated upon realizing the details of that festival. Here these bastards and bitches were, partying it up, while no doubt well within earshot of their thumping music Gazans have had for a long time no cause for celebration, dancing, given what their oppressors were doing to them, denying them everything but the most meager sustenance in life, of both body and soul. And the partygoers were oblivious to this.
I imagined myself the parent of a child, perhaps six years old, in Gaza, and I imagined the life prospects of that child of mine at the hands of the Israelis. Shut off from the world, unable to participate in or become educated through it, thoughts of an enriching career just that, thoughts, with chance of fulfillment in that and other ways, then all manner of deprivation, humiliation, harassment. And a lifetime of this? For my child? Because these hateful beasts have control over my child's, my wife's, my loved one's lives?
The rage in me began to well up, to the point where I could easily imagine myself of being able to do only one thing in this otherwise pointless, drawn out existence. Join the Al-Aqsa Flood, and kill as many of those arrogant, self-indulgent, self-absorbed, soulless creatures - they can't really be called "people" - as possible, not only out of retribution, but because they shouldn't be allowed to exist among human beings, they are a threat to them. It has come back to haunt them, just as they kill without limit to get what they feel is entitled to them, which is everything, then let them get killed in that pursuit. Just as they are ruthless in securing their ends, let them suffer in being denied them, with interest compounded.
Yes. But if you go too far down that road, then you've joined the intergenerational hate fest that guarantees that it goes on....and on....and on.
You can see the soulessness that emerges. People so self centred in their 'deep deep feelings' that they can live next door to a genocide....be part of the government that is committing it....and both not know and not care...at the same time.
We can call it denialism....but really what we're talking about here is soul death. Something all people still alive in their bodies will resist if at all possible.
So I feel horror for both what's happened in Palestine.....and what's happened in Israel. There are no winners.
Yes, this is the legacy that Israel/Zionism has left upon the world, that horror, that soul death. Nothing life affirming, instead life denying, to others. In my naivete, I thought that civilization had managed to move beyond that, but it hasn't.
Bizarro world indeed - the contrast between MSM versions of this genocide, not only from CNN, but other news choices including NPR, PBS and BBC. I mention these as I was once a viewer of each of them and am disgusted by their surrender and support of Israeli propaganda over the years.
Add to that the NYT, which two days ago ran an “analysis” of Trump’s 20 point plan and suggested he could be a serious candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize as a result. The author referred to Israel’s genocide as Netanyahu’s “overreach(ing).”
Yes. After I posted my comment here, I tried to post a comment on a NYT article about Israel’s concern about its post-genocide relationship with the U.S. Of course neither the author of the article nor his quoted sources used the word genocide. The sources cited in the article were optimistic about citizens of the U.S. forgetting about the last two years and wholeheartedly embracing Israel again. In fact, “confident” might be a better word to describe the sources than “optimistic.” The thrust of the article was about a planned propaganda campaign to win back U.S. citizens, but of course they didn’t call it propaganda, that’s my word for it. The NYT did not publish my comment, in which I said I would never forget, used the word propaganda to describe the planned campaign, and said I was more concerned about my relationship with my fellow citizens in the wake of the genocide than I was about my feelings toward Israel. The Israeli lobby has created such deep fissures in the U.S. public over the genocide and support for Israel in general. Buying our politicians and controlling our media, targeting students and academics and protesters in general, and contributing to a culture of lies. In addition to not forgiving Israel for what it has done to the Palestinians, I cannot forgive it’s supporters for what it’s done to the U.S., or maybe what it’s exposed about the U.S. I can no longer look at many of my fellow citizens in the same way.
I've been thinking of the dilemma that you are exploring here.....and wondering.....are not people like you and I, who can't look away, or stop caring..........not also in some ways trauma victims??
How do we deal with the horrific consequences of what we know. We marched with the Palestinians the first year of the genocide......I can't do the walk any longer, so in effect, I grew old standing with roughly 200...250 people........the demonstration didn't grow....a sea of indifference surrounded us...though eventually the Zionists across the street couldn't brave it any longer and mad signs like OUR LOVE IS GREATER THAN YOUR HATE...disappeared from view.
I'm Canadian. You'd think things might be better up here......but not in Alberta. Our PM when he finally opened his mouth said yes to a Palestinian state, but it had to be a Zionist Palestinian state!!!!
I'm not joking. It said everything about what he didn't know about the history of Palestine, or the Zionist movement.
But my starting question is where I think we need to focus. What are we to do...those of us who don't look away, or tell ourself comforting half truths?
Because whatever happens in the Middle East, we too have to think and feel our way to a better world order........and perhaps order is the wrong word.
I see some of the comments on this thread....turn to anger and name calling. I understand the frustration......but if there's anything these last two years have shown me, its that hate is perhaps the terminal illness of a species in deep trouble.
Our species...our supposed keystone, smartest of all the apes, human species. Where do we go from here? Is there a road, or even a path forward?? How does what we know change us.........and can that change do any good for all our children?? I have been so distraught about the little ones in Gaza......so overwhelmed for what their parents and grandparents have suffered........but how do we live so as to overcome the indifference around us???>
I don't have answers....but more and more, and especially in your divided country just now.......I think that is the question.
And thank you for responding......I know we all feel very alone in our knowledge at this moment in history. Alone and waiting for the next bombs to fall, again and again, on the innocent and the helpless.
It is painful to see NPR and PBS being overtaken by Zionists. Look down the list of contributors. And in every Masterpiece production, there's always a Jewish character who is totally magnanimous, noble, generous, etc.
Sadly for Jews, a great many in 'the west' conflate Jewishness with zionism. I do not accuse you of this error and I don't think your comment illustrates this error. Rather, it highlights how this purposefully and cynically manipulated conflation can influence ppl who don't really know what's going on
If the upstanding moral Jews in the pbs show are good, then the zionists must be good too.
We've all gone down some nasty rabbit holes in the west.......and for longer than many of us realized. Tonight my partner and I watched a Canadian NFB movie made a few years ago. WE WERE CHILDREN....is a dramatization of the personal memories of two residential school children........its very well done....but the lasting effect??
We white Christian colonials were a nasty lot........particularly if we aspired to a position of leadership in government or church.....
The irony may be that our parents were spared the worst of it......as working people, pioneers....they didn't know the half of what went on.........but as the stories are being told........I'm surprised anyone enters a Christian Church once they know.......
There is no Sky God.......at least not as those religious orders understood it.
In a similar way...........the suffering of the Palestinians are destroying the last vestiges of respect that Old Testament patriarch still enjoys.........
A spiritual people do not commit genocide.......nor do they torture children.
Why is it so bizarre? These media outlets have provided cover for Israel's genocide in Gaza from day one. The slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinians. That's the fucking problem! To expect anything else from these fucker's is delusional.
Of course it’s a sham. This is a “negotiation technique”, putting off any real resolution until it’s meaningless. The Empire wants Gaza. It doesn’t want Palestinians. Fuck Those Assholes! This ain’t over yet!! FREE PALESTINE!!
And Hamas is the “terrorist organization”…???? This is theatre. The killings are paused. The strikes will come and nothing will happen. The evil I D F monster is always being fed. Peace to every Palestinian can surely be in death only. No one can survive such horror generation after generation. In America most continue to live in the “luxury of indifference” at home and abroad. This is as dark and ugly as humanity can get.
I went down a 3 year rabbit hole devouring everything I could about the Civil War. I forget the abolitionist who said it but they accused a slaveholder of being 'purposely obtuse'.
Your use of the phrase "luxury of indifference" cuts right to the bone on the issue of continued genocide of the Palestinian people. Brilliant comment! Its right up there with military cowards exalting in the "bravery of being clear out of range" while launching missiles and drone strikes at their imagined dragons.
However, with all due respect and empathy, I believe it's important to observe that "dark and ugly"seems to be a relative perception in your associated comment. I think it's hard (not impossible, but indeed difficult) for those not bearing the brunt of genocide (unlike Palestinians themselves) to conceptualize how dark and ugly humanity can be. In fact, I believe this is the very reason that (nearly) the rest of the world does not collectively intervene (with the bold exceptions of the Yemenese, Freedom Flotilla participants, and Free Palestine marchers) and try to put a stop to the genocide immediately. Sadly, Israeli war crimes, IDF mass murder, collective punishment by the Israeli government, man made starvation of Palestinian society, and the overall genocide of the Palestinian people largely remains an abstraction due to those not having experienced these atrocities themselves. Indeed, the Israeli government, by banning all foreign news correspondents in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, aims to help keep it this way.
Thus, IMO, it's not really fair to the Palestinian people for others (besides other genocide survivors--who are rare...and maybe your one) to speculate on the limits of human depravity. So. please, let us know if you've come face to face with it-- then I'll give you the right to attest on how dark and ugly humanity can ultimately get. Until then, like most of us, you can only imagine.
Of course it is. However, you hedge your bets on genocide remaining an abstract notion with or without the employ of empathy with your qualified use of the word "may". Well, quite frankly, that means that it may--or it may not. Shouldn't that go without saying?
Who exactly is it that's keen to show they're right, which you accuse me of in another thread?
Quibbling over semantics again here with Nancy's comment.
We're not in a logic or law or English class here.
And if Nancy's 'abstraction' were to become reality for her, meaning she's being pursued by rabid hyenas so they can exterminate her family, destroy everything, torture and kill her, would she only then have permission to imagine how monstrous it is?
The concept of genocide and the international laws that apply to it do not apply to attacks upon humans by hyenas. It appears you're letting your imagination get the better of you and making yourself look foolish as you grasp for straws trying to defend faulty logic.
Hmmm your assessment of my “dark and ugly” comment feels out of context for what it was meant to convey- Fact. We see it. We see the power pushed from all sides upon those who suffer oppression. It’s real. There aren’t enough phrases to call it what it is. The Palestinian ppl don’t need minimized nor can I comprehend why you’d say (I am) “speculating on the limits of human depravity”. I don’t need to compare my person journey up against this genocide; that’s insulting. Let’s leave it where this all began. An occupation of Palestine since the Nakba of ‘48 has gone unnoticed by the world at large and in the 21st century with real-time visuals of the horrors unfolding once again the world moves on. Can it BE any more ugly and dark? My voice is one of many still willing to speak out, donate to the ppl on the ground, refusing to ignore this ongoing assault . Your lecturing me on the content of my intentions falls flat and is unnecessary. None of us are experts of the other’s heart or history. Empathy and compassion still matter, not who has the wit and mastery of poetic tongue to “be right”.
The is the crux of the issue of our debate---you weren't conveying fact-- you were conveying your opinion when you believed it to be fact. More specifically you were trying to convey the maximum extent of humanities darkness and ugliness as fact when it is simply your opinion. I challenged that with my own opinion and backed that up with some relevant facts. I suggest you re-read your initial conclusion. It is as clear as day that your opinion is presented as fact. As I stated in a follow up response (to Born on Jan 6) nobody is entitled to their personal opinions of facts--and that includes both of us. Many folks in this day and age of sound bites and political spin rush to state opinions as fact. I have been guilty of it myself. However, the difference between you and I is that I am happy to stand corrected (on opinion vs. fact) when it is brought to my attention in civil discourse. You, apparently, are not. You choose to take it as a personal affront. I suggest you learn from those errors rather than deny them.
As I stated earlier, the limit of humanities "darkness and ugliness" is a relative conclusion of opinion. Further, I believe it will always remain subjective opinion. The adjectives you use are not part of the internationally accepted definition of genocide--nor do I believe they ever will be. That said, I certainly don't believe you are in some unique position to use them as a statement of fact--towards me...or the rest of the world.
BTW, a couple of additional points:
1. You say that you "see it" (meaning the Palestinian genocide). I highly doubt you see it. You likely see a filtered (tele)vision of it. The only public images I see coming out of Gaza or the West Bank are via Al Jazeera. Those are the ones that I (and I believe the rest of the viewing public) see. What alternative sources are you alternatively seeing that are showing actual images of murdered Palestinians? If any, please provide those links. Anyhow, the Al Jazeera images of Palestinian carnage are, in virtually all cases, limited and shielded from the public. Most assumed corpses are displayed within sheets or body bags. Most, if not all, Images of Palestinians being shot or, say, vaporized by drones are grainy and presented from afar--they not shown front and center where you can see body parts and virtually taste/smell the victims blood that may have splattered on you face had you been standing next to them as many Palestinians have. That is actually "seeing it". Again, I don't believe you (or the general public) have really seen the genocide. I believe you have seen the after effects of the genocide...and they have been doctored in order to be palatable. The truth of the limit to humanities dark and ugly side? As Jack Nicholson famously stated about the public in the movie A Few Good Men: The truth? "You can't handle the truth". The public's imagination (which I believe includes you) is what is filling in the reality blanks. That's not seeing; that's imagining--meaning understanding the truth in the abstract.
2. My comments have nothing to do with expressing a shared empathy or compassion on the issue. What do you know about my opinion on those matters? Virtually nothing. When you choose to bring this into your retort it only illustrates your inability to address the validity of my critique in your comments. It is akin to "changing the subject" in a particular topic of debate when you find yourself flailing in your efforts to address the facts. Again, I see that as your problem-not mine.
I reiterate: your accusations are your confessions.
Man, you took this WAY too far.
Here are humans expressing their horror and grief over atrocity and you go after them for grieving and opining that yes, this genocide is EVIL, and that averting eyes is evil. Neither of them used the word evil, I did, but I dare to assume that their words are synonyms for EVIL.
Neither of the women you've loosed your 'logic' upon said they were stating indisputable fact. Rather, they are humans grieving and sharing that grief with others who grieve with them.
They didn't need to. If a "fact" is disputable, then it is not necessarily a fact. It's likely an opinion masquerading as fact. You seem to be full of them. Addressing yours is like playing wack-a-mole; particularly when you have now devolved into putting words into the mouth of others that weren't there to begin with.
Excuse me! WHO'S putting words into whose mouths? You claim to know these ppl are stating FACTS when it is patently apparent they were expressing grief and their personal feelings
You are a hypocrit of the first order. Why don't YOU read what you've written?
Even tho we haven't experienced genocide (yet...well, not the us population in general), we've been watching it, and denial and lack of empathy of a livestreamed genocide facilitated and shielded by our gov't IS dark and ugly. The imaginings we have about this public extermination of innocents and the lack of response by americans in general, and cheerleading by many...
Do we really need to be genocided upon ourselves to be able to state that genocide deniers, apologists and ppl who can't be bothered to care about their country annihilating innocent Palestinians are the worst of humanity?
People say things when they're deranged over the us facilitated extermination of Palestinians (I can relate).
We must take her comments in context. american apathy is, for Kathy, the greatest evil bc that's the greatest evil she has personally experienced (probably). It's relative. Too, perhaps for Kathy, american indifference IS the greatest evil, even more evil than the actual butchers, as it has allowed the butchery, paid for with our taxes, to go on for well beyond the last few years. If genocide joe had told the nazis to go fuck themselves we wouldn't be here sparring over who gets to define what is evil.
Can we not include the butchers and deniers in the same category: the darkest and ugliest of humanity? Both groups facilitate genocide.
I seriously doubt Palestinians would accuse Kathy of usurping their right to define what's evil.
Peace to you for hearing me and those suffering in real time. My god, most Americans don’t acknowledge the genocide of the Native People (hence P 2025 attempting to “restore America” to what it was — brother ) let alone Palestine, S Africa, etc etc etc. It brings me no sense of satisfaction seeing and speaking of the powerful coldly dismissing generations of people funded by our tax dollars for decades. Yes, deeply evil and dark.
I wrote that I believe Kathy has no right to define the limit of humanities ugliness and darkness. I stand by that assertion for the reasons already presented. I need not factually spar with you (or anyone else) because I stated that as opinion, not fact. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well. Neither of us are entitled to our personal opinions of the facts. Apparently you think you are.
For some inexpiable reason you interpreted my assertion as an attempt to define evil-- which I never did. Perhaps because you are singularly concerned with your own opinion which blinds you to the opinion of others. Fortunately, that's your problem, not mine. If you'd like me to entertain the fantastical notion of evil, I can tell you that I don't believe the word "evil" applies to what is happening to the Palestinians. Why? Because I don't believe religious dogma has anything to do with defining genocide. Rather, it is an international legal matter which religious dogma need not be applied. Further, I find those that must apply the loose concept of evil to define a genocide ignorant and misguided.
Your og post was supportive of what Kathy said at first but devolved into sarcasm about her not being the one to decide that american indifference is the height of "dark and ugly humanity."
Did not Kathy state her point as her opinion?
Your accusations are your confessions.
Why do you get to hide behind 'it's my opinion' but deny her, and me, the same right?
If you don't think the nazi extermination of Palestinians is evil, then what is?
For the record, I've been an avowed atheist for 50 years and religion has zero weight in my definition of evil. Can evil only be interpreted via religion?!
Yeah ok, you win. Maybe evil or human depravity are not in the codes of laws but we can see it when we see it. And we are obligated as humans to call it out.
Go ahead. Feel smug about being denotatively correct re: "law."
But I beg to differ that "this" (this being wanton extermination of innocents) is a matter for international law. We've all seen how effective that is.
1. No, Kathy did not state her point as opinion. You don't need to ask me about this because its a matter of public record. You are apparently just to lazy to realize it. Nonetheless, as I similarly stated earlier, nobody has a right to convey opinion as fact in public without the expectation of being reasonably challenged. Its not a crime, but a matter of Social Etiquette. Being able to distinguish between the two, I believe, is critical toward operating reasonably within a civil society; particularly in this day and age of mass, global, and instant communication.
2. I don't believe I ever presented my opinions as fact in this thread. I apply the same Etiquette of myself as I expect of others. If I ever paraded my opinion as fact, I welcome any attempt to bring that to my attention.
3. The Palestinian genocide has nothing to do with the dogmatic notion of "evil". Genocide is strictly a matter of international law in civil society. How effective that notion is on the international stage (the only stage that I know of that can be brought to bear) is another matter that I feel unnecessary strays afield of the original post. Suffice it to say similar crimes against humanity that generated current genocide law and Convention were addressed at the Nuremberg trials that took place during 1945-46. You many not have liked the results, but I don't believe you can point to a case of accountability that has resulted in a better outcome. Just like the U.S. Constitution that operates as a living and amendable document, there is always room for improvement in international law and its abidance. Again, I believe those improvements will never come by parading personal opinion as fact.
You're not even on the same planet as the people who have OPINED herein.
Where are all your denial and humiliating 'deductions' coming from? Why? Why do you think it's ok to beat up ppl who are grieving over a real horror? Why do you think your 'logic' is gonna set them straight, that they're incorrect in their assessments, their OPINIONS, of a GENOCIDE being the most horrific thing they've (we've) experienced?
You WERE dismissive and smug in your 'opinions' of what Kathy and Stacy said. Neither person declared their views as FACT but rather were expressing their humanity and grief.
Are you in an Intro to Logic class this semester and thinking you've got it all figured out? I went thru that with my daughter and she got served...
There's a difference between deductive and inductive logic, and there's a difference between pouring your grief out and claiming your view is the FACT, and you don't seem to know the distinction.
In your last comment you elide the fact, yes FACT, that the nazis (and yes, I said nazis--prove me wrong with your 'logic') are exterminating innocents. Prove Stacy and Kathy wrong in what are very OBVIOUSLY their opinions.
You've lost the forest for the trees (another metaphor and not to be taken as literally 'losing the forest or seeing trees'). There's literal and there's figurative speech.
You're so hung up on proving Stacy and Kathy to be 'illogical' that you cannot see the pain behind their words and you, shockingly, think this is the place to pull your dictionary of freshman logic out.
Fucking grow some empathy why don't you? And stop taking every word written as literal.
Just really makes me sad that you think THIS is the place to beat down ppl with your faulty bullshit
You're no doubt now coming up with more embarrassing comebacks.
Those who don’t bow down and support Israel and Trump will be treated just like the Palestinians. Thankfully there are those around the world engaging in mass protests and strikes against the latest attack against the flotilla attempting to deliver aid. But in the USA there is nothing of the sort taking place compared to those abroad. The sheeple in the USA will be shorn on behalf of TPTB political puppets supporting this ongoing genocide regardless of which brand of the corporate/oligarch uni-party they identify with. We are all Palestinian in their eyes and they will kill us all if they deem it necessary to protect their monstrous grasp of power over us. As Hedges has said many times over the years, our only recourse is massive general strikes and boycotts. But in the USA the sheeple just keep on voting for their own demise and fighting each other in a zombie like manner.
Thanks, Chris. I was waiting for the dust to settle to be able to see how this is more about PR than it is about justice. You lay it out. Thanks for who you are, and for what you do.
Both Trump and Natanyahu are war criminals, just like their predecessors, and need to be in The Hague for crimes against humanity. This is a sham and while I’m thankful for the respite for the Palestinians from the bombings, I feel Israel is so sadistic and therefore will never stop the killing until they ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians from this land which is and should be Palestine. 😢🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
Israelis have always been cowards. Can you imagine a real fighting force against Hamas? Hamas with its scooters and hang gliders humiliated the IDF. The only way Israel wins is by dropping bombs from gifted aircraft, or by cowardly terrorist acts against civilians. Pagers, goddamn them. Sneak bombing of civilian negotiators.
So, Israel will lose. It must lose, eventually.
It will make a fatal mistake against a real adversary. I believe Iran is that adversary, and behind Iran will be the whole rest of the Global South, which is as we speak gaining strength, and increasing disgust at these murderous cowards.
My heart is shattered in a trillion pieces as I watch this horror and see that nothing is stopping it. How can I take anything seriously in this reality? How can one have faith in anything……..
I feel this way too Stacy, as if the issues of climate change and fascism in the US are not enough. It is important to connect with those who feel this pain too if you can find them.
She's found us John! We're HERE bc we feel Stacy's pain and we come here for solace from others whose hearts are broken and souls shredded. We come here to disgorge a tiny bit of the horror and uncomprehending disgust. We come here to remind ourselves that we're not alone and that other humans are out there
While I am grateful for this comment thread and a couple of others that I participate in, my ultimate point to Stacy and yourself is the actual communing with others in person and small groups to discuss major issues of the day. In my life, real live discussions with people who are informed, interested and passionate simply DO NOT HAPPEN. This is a serious problem IMO and the potential for meaningful change for a better world / society is still controlled by TPTB. We disconnected and divided besides being terrified to bring up and understand how we got to this point without be ostracized and cancelled.
I went to a new documentary today titled "Orwell 2 + 2 = 5"
This documentary film demonstrates our impending fascism and how we arrived here - it is brilliant. I urge everyone to see it, to feel it and share it with others if possible before it is too late. Thank you.
There's going to be another massive No Kings day this Sat. Oct 18 (where I'll be sporting my keffiyeh that I never leave the house without).
If you don't already know about it, your mind will be blown when you see how many rallies are happening all over the us. Just punch in your zip code and voila!
You will definitely find others of our kind there. Still, it's not the same as having them in our personal lives
In support of this Hedges piece, I highly recommend the recent Sept.24th, 2025, talk by Norman Finkelstein at U Mass, in which he lays out the history of Israeli aggressions leading to the ongoing genocide, that seems to finally be coming to a head, although I don't hold much hope or any trust of the Zionist criminals. I am unable to post the link but I just found the YouTube video using the key words I mentioned here. The video is 2hrs. & 15-minutes total, long but worth every second of it. Norman is a treasure, a truth teller of integrity - one who has paid a heavy price for doing so for over 40- years.
You are undoubtedly correct. As soon as the Israeli hostages are released, Netanyahu will resume his murderous assault on the Palestinians. I am very surprised that Hamas agreed. It's as clear as day that neither Trump nor Netanyahu can be trusted!!
More red herrings to divert attention from the one issue that would result in impeachment: Epstein. In the meantime, the Texas National Guard remains uninvited in my home state of Illinois despite gun violence in their own state being out of control. Texas is responsible for more than 10% of the 40K+ gun deaths each year in the US. White House spokeswoman Abigail Jackson said “President Trump will not turn a blind eye to the lawlessness plaguing American cities and we expect to be vindicated by a higher court.” Given that, hopefully the Texas Guard will be sent back home to supervise their neighbors. No one needs it more, other than Florida. If both states were disarmed, annual gun deaths would drop nearly 17%. Greg Abbott’s previous comments suggest he’ll support it. “You can either fully enforce protection for federal employees or get out of the way and let Texas Guard do it,” Abbott said in a post on X.” https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/gun-violence-data/state-gun-violence-data
For three seconds, I dared to have hope the other morning. That fleeting moment has vanished completely inside Mr Fish's wall of skeletons and the poisonous touch by Mileikowsky the Murderer. How badly I wish for the Great Chris Hedges to (for once) be incorrect ... but it is impossible.
Chris, you are absolutely right and it is beyond frustrating to watch these shams be presented as if they were serious solutions when we know what they really are.
Not a doubt in my mind that every word of this is true. But if you get your “news” from the legacy media, you would think the “war” was over. Thank you, Chris, for your realistic assessment.
So sad/glad that Chris states what is obvious to ppl who've been watching this obliteration re: the 'ceasefire.' (the nazis fire and Palestinians cease)
All this giddy hullaballoo about the ceasefire in the msm and even in some of the middle east sources I use. HOW MANY TIMES HAS A CEASEFIRE BEEN CALLED in the last 2 years?
And even if the wholesale extermination stops, Palestinians will continue to have unimaginable suffering imposed on them in myriad ways for the rest of their lives. The horror hasn't stopped, only changed form. For the moment
Do you want to have a bizarre experience? Read Chris Hedges’ excellent article here, with its facts and logic, and then tune in to, say, CNN, and listen to the worthless talking heads discuss this “peace plan” as if it’s serious and significant, and not just another exercise in pretending to take action when no action is being allowed. You’ll feel as if you’ve just landed in the Bizarro World.
In line with the talking heads reciting the hasbara-ist scripts provided them, there was the parallel campaign in the media, broadcast and print, to note the 2nd anniversary of Oct. 7th along purely Israeli lines, e.g., "Hamas' terrorist attack on Oct. 7th" completely devoid of the century of Palestinian suffering and displacement at the hands of the Ashkenazis/Israelis.
A particularly shameless example of this was by the editor of the editorial page of the Boston Globe himself James Dao, titled "Israel's fractured soul." The title alone should tell you where this is heading - in the spirit of "that's enough about you, let's talk about me now," Dao expended nearly 4,000 words profiling the anguish Israelis from various stations in that warped society were experiencing now that the complacency of the "good life" they had been enjoying - which of course entailed obliviousness toward the Palestinians - was forever shattered on Oct. 7th.
Typical of Dao's focus - and Israelis' self-absorption - was this passage about a woman originally from Britain. "She fell in love with Israel after multiple visits and decided to move here to raise a family 18 years ago. She abhors the war, but said that she also feels anguish when her progressive friends back home lash out at Israel as a genocidal state. 'Our beautiful country has become a pariah state,' she told me."
Of note is that this was the only reference to the genocide in Dao' entire piece, in line with his near-total ahistorical ignorance of Palestine over the past two years despite presumably having the information and resources of his paper at his disposal with which to educate himself about what's been going on.
A really nice touch is that at the end of his Rick Steves-like travelogue through Israeli society he witlessly(?), blithely(?), unselfconsciously(?), brazenly(?) added this line "Reporting for this piece was sponsored in part by the American Middle East Press Association." Of course, AMEPA says, it is "focused on fostering a deeper understanding of Israel and enhancing comprehensive coverage of Israel within the broader context of the Middle East among American media," whatever that last phrase means.
So there you have it, a highly placed figure in the major newspaper in a major US media market devoting a lengthy, insipid piece prioritizing the self-indulgent anguish of living Israelis over the 100s of thousands of Palestinian dead, maimed, diminished in life prospects. The icing on the cake being his violation on just about every count of the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists. Quite a tour de farce.
Your example of Dao is the example of most 'western media.'
A bunch of putrid disgusting liars and nazi (israeli) apologists who value money and position over morality/humanity and telling the truth, which is their literal job.
Can't WAIT to see what kinds of hoops and mental gymnastics they use to try and make us forget this horror that they've FACILITATED with their lies. They should be prosecuted for genocide denial, incitement to genocide with their lies and at the very least lose their licenses/press badges for defrauding the public. Personally, I'd prefer they were dropped into Gaza for a little refresher on what their job is supposed to be, and then left to rot there.
May every gd one of them burn in the flames of hell. Yeah, sounds good but I want semi-instant karma where these craven dogturds burn in the flames of public rage in the here and now. But NO!!! The worst of them are rewarded: a lying genocidal nazi psychopath who fomented extermination proudly and publicly runs cbs 60 minutes now.
Wait a minute, how did you possibly get inside my head to get down to the very word what's been rattling around in there...?? This is getting weird.
What can I say? Great minds think alike :)
Yours likely the greater, I'm beginning to worry mine is actually undergoing physical changes due to some portions being overly engaged over the past two years - with no end in sight - while the pleasure centers shrivel. It might be interesting to see what an MRI or PET scan or whatever it is that depicts brain activity reveals. But of course, along with vaccines, that wouldn't be covered by insurance.
Pshaw to my mind being 'the greater.'
Your mind, like mine, sees this horror for what it is. A hideous unwarranted apocalypse.
You think your brain is shriveled from grief, rage and disbelief? So is mine... we are of a mind, maybe only half a mind between the 2 of us, and yet here we are with our dessicated, shriveled, mashed gray matter and we can still see the horror for what it is.
If you're at all interested in reading Dao's embarrassment to himself and to journalism, the link is here https://www.bostonglobe.com/2025/10/07/opinion/israel-gaza-oct-7-two-years-later/?p1=BGSearch_Advanced_Results but it may be behind a paywall. Perhaps a little online sleuthing will get you to it from another source.
Does anyone following Chris Hedges really need more proof of western media's cowardly despicableness?
Still! Providing evidence for your claim is deeply appreciated :)
I had that visceral feeling after the Oct 7 attack on the music festival. "What sort of society would hold a music festival next to the wall holding back the indigenous people of the land you consider your own."
It wasn't that the attack wasn't horrific........it was just that the utter lack of consciousness of where in fact they were....must have made what they suddenly faced seem incomprehensible.
Our species capacity for self delusion may be infinite.
I was nauseated upon realizing the details of that festival. Here these bastards and bitches were, partying it up, while no doubt well within earshot of their thumping music Gazans have had for a long time no cause for celebration, dancing, given what their oppressors were doing to them, denying them everything but the most meager sustenance in life, of both body and soul. And the partygoers were oblivious to this.
I imagined myself the parent of a child, perhaps six years old, in Gaza, and I imagined the life prospects of that child of mine at the hands of the Israelis. Shut off from the world, unable to participate in or become educated through it, thoughts of an enriching career just that, thoughts, with chance of fulfillment in that and other ways, then all manner of deprivation, humiliation, harassment. And a lifetime of this? For my child? Because these hateful beasts have control over my child's, my wife's, my loved one's lives?
The rage in me began to well up, to the point where I could easily imagine myself of being able to do only one thing in this otherwise pointless, drawn out existence. Join the Al-Aqsa Flood, and kill as many of those arrogant, self-indulgent, self-absorbed, soulless creatures - they can't really be called "people" - as possible, not only out of retribution, but because they shouldn't be allowed to exist among human beings, they are a threat to them. It has come back to haunt them, just as they kill without limit to get what they feel is entitled to them, which is everything, then let them get killed in that pursuit. Just as they are ruthless in securing their ends, let them suffer in being denied them, with interest compounded.
Yes. But if you go too far down that road, then you've joined the intergenerational hate fest that guarantees that it goes on....and on....and on.
You can see the soulessness that emerges. People so self centred in their 'deep deep feelings' that they can live next door to a genocide....be part of the government that is committing it....and both not know and not care...at the same time.
We can call it denialism....but really what we're talking about here is soul death. Something all people still alive in their bodies will resist if at all possible.
So I feel horror for both what's happened in Palestine.....and what's happened in Israel. There are no winners.
Yes, this is the legacy that Israel/Zionism has left upon the world, that horror, that soul death. Nothing life affirming, instead life denying, to others. In my naivete, I thought that civilization had managed to move beyond that, but it hasn't.
Bizarro world indeed - the contrast between MSM versions of this genocide, not only from CNN, but other news choices including NPR, PBS and BBC. I mention these as I was once a viewer of each of them and am disgusted by their surrender and support of Israeli propaganda over the years.
Add to that the NYT, which two days ago ran an “analysis” of Trump’s 20 point plan and suggested he could be a serious candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize as a result. The author referred to Israel’s genocide as Netanyahu’s “overreach(ing).”
Shameful pandering........what the msm's job is, for the most part, is keeping the extent of western criminality a dark secret.
Yes. After I posted my comment here, I tried to post a comment on a NYT article about Israel’s concern about its post-genocide relationship with the U.S. Of course neither the author of the article nor his quoted sources used the word genocide. The sources cited in the article were optimistic about citizens of the U.S. forgetting about the last two years and wholeheartedly embracing Israel again. In fact, “confident” might be a better word to describe the sources than “optimistic.” The thrust of the article was about a planned propaganda campaign to win back U.S. citizens, but of course they didn’t call it propaganda, that’s my word for it. The NYT did not publish my comment, in which I said I would never forget, used the word propaganda to describe the planned campaign, and said I was more concerned about my relationship with my fellow citizens in the wake of the genocide than I was about my feelings toward Israel. The Israeli lobby has created such deep fissures in the U.S. public over the genocide and support for Israel in general. Buying our politicians and controlling our media, targeting students and academics and protesters in general, and contributing to a culture of lies. In addition to not forgiving Israel for what it has done to the Palestinians, I cannot forgive it’s supporters for what it’s done to the U.S., or maybe what it’s exposed about the U.S. I can no longer look at many of my fellow citizens in the same way.
I've been thinking of the dilemma that you are exploring here.....and wondering.....are not people like you and I, who can't look away, or stop caring..........not also in some ways trauma victims??
How do we deal with the horrific consequences of what we know. We marched with the Palestinians the first year of the genocide......I can't do the walk any longer, so in effect, I grew old standing with roughly 200...250 people........the demonstration didn't grow....a sea of indifference surrounded us...though eventually the Zionists across the street couldn't brave it any longer and mad signs like OUR LOVE IS GREATER THAN YOUR HATE...disappeared from view.
I'm Canadian. You'd think things might be better up here......but not in Alberta. Our PM when he finally opened his mouth said yes to a Palestinian state, but it had to be a Zionist Palestinian state!!!!
I'm not joking. It said everything about what he didn't know about the history of Palestine, or the Zionist movement.
But my starting question is where I think we need to focus. What are we to do...those of us who don't look away, or tell ourself comforting half truths?
Because whatever happens in the Middle East, we too have to think and feel our way to a better world order........and perhaps order is the wrong word.
I see some of the comments on this thread....turn to anger and name calling. I understand the frustration......but if there's anything these last two years have shown me, its that hate is perhaps the terminal illness of a species in deep trouble.
Our species...our supposed keystone, smartest of all the apes, human species. Where do we go from here? Is there a road, or even a path forward?? How does what we know change us.........and can that change do any good for all our children?? I have been so distraught about the little ones in Gaza......so overwhelmed for what their parents and grandparents have suffered........but how do we live so as to overcome the indifference around us???>
I don't have answers....but more and more, and especially in your divided country just now.......I think that is the question.
And thank you for responding......I know we all feel very alone in our knowledge at this moment in history. Alone and waiting for the next bombs to fall, again and again, on the innocent and the helpless.
Thank you, Ingamarie. A “No Kings” march is planned in the U.S. for October 18. It’s expected to be a big one— I hope so.
It is painful to see NPR and PBS being overtaken by Zionists. Look down the list of contributors. And in every Masterpiece production, there's always a Jewish character who is totally magnanimous, noble, generous, etc.
Sadly for Jews, a great many in 'the west' conflate Jewishness with zionism. I do not accuse you of this error and I don't think your comment illustrates this error. Rather, it highlights how this purposefully and cynically manipulated conflation can influence ppl who don't really know what's going on
If the upstanding moral Jews in the pbs show are good, then the zionists must be good too.
We've all gone down some nasty rabbit holes in the west.......and for longer than many of us realized. Tonight my partner and I watched a Canadian NFB movie made a few years ago. WE WERE CHILDREN....is a dramatization of the personal memories of two residential school children........its very well done....but the lasting effect??
We white Christian colonials were a nasty lot........particularly if we aspired to a position of leadership in government or church.....
The irony may be that our parents were spared the worst of it......as working people, pioneers....they didn't know the half of what went on.........but as the stories are being told........I'm surprised anyone enters a Christian Church once they know.......
There is no Sky God.......at least not as those religious orders understood it.
In a similar way...........the suffering of the Palestinians are destroying the last vestiges of respect that Old Testament patriarch still enjoys.........
A spiritual people do not commit genocide.......nor do they torture children.
Why is it so bizarre? These media outlets have provided cover for Israel's genocide in Gaza from day one. The slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinians. That's the fucking problem! To expect anything else from these fucker's is delusional.
Short and sweet. And profane. I approve!
Of course it’s a sham. This is a “negotiation technique”, putting off any real resolution until it’s meaningless. The Empire wants Gaza. It doesn’t want Palestinians. Fuck Those Assholes! This ain’t over yet!! FREE PALESTINE!!
For just a sec, I thought I had written what you wrote. You said it for both of us
And Hamas is the “terrorist organization”…???? This is theatre. The killings are paused. The strikes will come and nothing will happen. The evil I D F monster is always being fed. Peace to every Palestinian can surely be in death only. No one can survive such horror generation after generation. In America most continue to live in the “luxury of indifference” at home and abroad. This is as dark and ugly as humanity can get.
Another term in relation to your “luxury of indifference” I use is: Willful Ignorance.
The American way….
I went down a 3 year rabbit hole devouring everything I could about the Civil War. I forget the abolitionist who said it but they accused a slaveholder of being 'purposely obtuse'.
Nothing's changed
Your use of the phrase "luxury of indifference" cuts right to the bone on the issue of continued genocide of the Palestinian people. Brilliant comment! Its right up there with military cowards exalting in the "bravery of being clear out of range" while launching missiles and drone strikes at their imagined dragons.
However, with all due respect and empathy, I believe it's important to observe that "dark and ugly"seems to be a relative perception in your associated comment. I think it's hard (not impossible, but indeed difficult) for those not bearing the brunt of genocide (unlike Palestinians themselves) to conceptualize how dark and ugly humanity can be. In fact, I believe this is the very reason that (nearly) the rest of the world does not collectively intervene (with the bold exceptions of the Yemenese, Freedom Flotilla participants, and Free Palestine marchers) and try to put a stop to the genocide immediately. Sadly, Israeli war crimes, IDF mass murder, collective punishment by the Israeli government, man made starvation of Palestinian society, and the overall genocide of the Palestinian people largely remains an abstraction due to those not having experienced these atrocities themselves. Indeed, the Israeli government, by banning all foreign news correspondents in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, aims to help keep it this way.
Thus, IMO, it's not really fair to the Palestinian people for others (besides other genocide survivors--who are rare...and maybe your one) to speculate on the limits of human depravity. So. please, let us know if you've come face to face with it-- then I'll give you the right to attest on how dark and ugly humanity can ultimately get. Until then, like most of us, you can only imagine.
I think the “ability to imagine” to which you refer is called empathy. For those without it, yes, genocide may remain “an abstraction.”
Of course it is. However, you hedge your bets on genocide remaining an abstract notion with or without the employ of empathy with your qualified use of the word "may". Well, quite frankly, that means that it may--or it may not. Shouldn't that go without saying?
Who exactly is it that's keen to show they're right, which you accuse me of in another thread?
Quibbling over semantics again here with Nancy's comment.
We're not in a logic or law or English class here.
And if Nancy's 'abstraction' were to become reality for her, meaning she's being pursued by rabid hyenas so they can exterminate her family, destroy everything, torture and kill her, would she only then have permission to imagine how monstrous it is?
The concept of genocide and the international laws that apply to it do not apply to attacks upon humans by hyenas. It appears you're letting your imagination get the better of you and making yourself look foolish as you grasp for straws trying to defend faulty logic.
And P.S., ever heard of metaphor oh obelisk of reason?
I'm rather enjoying helping you showcase your 'logic'.
Let's go!
look in the mirror oh great Immanuel Kant.
With your immense powers of logic, can you not see the fallacies you so embarrassingly toss out?
Hmmm your assessment of my “dark and ugly” comment feels out of context for what it was meant to convey- Fact. We see it. We see the power pushed from all sides upon those who suffer oppression. It’s real. There aren’t enough phrases to call it what it is. The Palestinian ppl don’t need minimized nor can I comprehend why you’d say (I am) “speculating on the limits of human depravity”. I don’t need to compare my person journey up against this genocide; that’s insulting. Let’s leave it where this all began. An occupation of Palestine since the Nakba of ‘48 has gone unnoticed by the world at large and in the 21st century with real-time visuals of the horrors unfolding once again the world moves on. Can it BE any more ugly and dark? My voice is one of many still willing to speak out, donate to the ppl on the ground, refusing to ignore this ongoing assault . Your lecturing me on the content of my intentions falls flat and is unnecessary. None of us are experts of the other’s heart or history. Empathy and compassion still matter, not who has the wit and mastery of poetic tongue to “be right”.
The is the crux of the issue of our debate---you weren't conveying fact-- you were conveying your opinion when you believed it to be fact. More specifically you were trying to convey the maximum extent of humanities darkness and ugliness as fact when it is simply your opinion. I challenged that with my own opinion and backed that up with some relevant facts. I suggest you re-read your initial conclusion. It is as clear as day that your opinion is presented as fact. As I stated in a follow up response (to Born on Jan 6) nobody is entitled to their personal opinions of facts--and that includes both of us. Many folks in this day and age of sound bites and political spin rush to state opinions as fact. I have been guilty of it myself. However, the difference between you and I is that I am happy to stand corrected (on opinion vs. fact) when it is brought to my attention in civil discourse. You, apparently, are not. You choose to take it as a personal affront. I suggest you learn from those errors rather than deny them.
As I stated earlier, the limit of humanities "darkness and ugliness" is a relative conclusion of opinion. Further, I believe it will always remain subjective opinion. The adjectives you use are not part of the internationally accepted definition of genocide--nor do I believe they ever will be. That said, I certainly don't believe you are in some unique position to use them as a statement of fact--towards me...or the rest of the world.
BTW, a couple of additional points:
1. You say that you "see it" (meaning the Palestinian genocide). I highly doubt you see it. You likely see a filtered (tele)vision of it. The only public images I see coming out of Gaza or the West Bank are via Al Jazeera. Those are the ones that I (and I believe the rest of the viewing public) see. What alternative sources are you alternatively seeing that are showing actual images of murdered Palestinians? If any, please provide those links. Anyhow, the Al Jazeera images of Palestinian carnage are, in virtually all cases, limited and shielded from the public. Most assumed corpses are displayed within sheets or body bags. Most, if not all, Images of Palestinians being shot or, say, vaporized by drones are grainy and presented from afar--they not shown front and center where you can see body parts and virtually taste/smell the victims blood that may have splattered on you face had you been standing next to them as many Palestinians have. That is actually "seeing it". Again, I don't believe you (or the general public) have really seen the genocide. I believe you have seen the after effects of the genocide...and they have been doctored in order to be palatable. The truth of the limit to humanities dark and ugly side? As Jack Nicholson famously stated about the public in the movie A Few Good Men: The truth? "You can't handle the truth". The public's imagination (which I believe includes you) is what is filling in the reality blanks. That's not seeing; that's imagining--meaning understanding the truth in the abstract.
2. My comments have nothing to do with expressing a shared empathy or compassion on the issue. What do you know about my opinion on those matters? Virtually nothing. When you choose to bring this into your retort it only illustrates your inability to address the validity of my critique in your comments. It is akin to "changing the subject" in a particular topic of debate when you find yourself flailing in your efforts to address the facts. Again, I see that as your problem-not mine.
I reiterate: your accusations are your confessions.
Man, you took this WAY too far.
Here are humans expressing their horror and grief over atrocity and you go after them for grieving and opining that yes, this genocide is EVIL, and that averting eyes is evil. Neither of them used the word evil, I did, but I dare to assume that their words are synonyms for EVIL.
Neither of the women you've loosed your 'logic' upon said they were stating indisputable fact. Rather, they are humans grieving and sharing that grief with others who grieve with them.
Nice.
They didn't need to. If a "fact" is disputable, then it is not necessarily a fact. It's likely an opinion masquerading as fact. You seem to be full of them. Addressing yours is like playing wack-a-mole; particularly when you have now devolved into putting words into the mouth of others that weren't there to begin with.
Pa-the-tic
Excuse me! WHO'S putting words into whose mouths? You claim to know these ppl are stating FACTS when it is patently apparent they were expressing grief and their personal feelings
You are a hypocrit of the first order. Why don't YOU read what you've written?
Heavy yawn.
Even tho we haven't experienced genocide (yet...well, not the us population in general), we've been watching it, and denial and lack of empathy of a livestreamed genocide facilitated and shielded by our gov't IS dark and ugly. The imaginings we have about this public extermination of innocents and the lack of response by americans in general, and cheerleading by many...
Do we really need to be genocided upon ourselves to be able to state that genocide deniers, apologists and ppl who can't be bothered to care about their country annihilating innocent Palestinians are the worst of humanity?
People say things when they're deranged over the us facilitated extermination of Palestinians (I can relate).
We must take her comments in context. american apathy is, for Kathy, the greatest evil bc that's the greatest evil she has personally experienced (probably). It's relative. Too, perhaps for Kathy, american indifference IS the greatest evil, even more evil than the actual butchers, as it has allowed the butchery, paid for with our taxes, to go on for well beyond the last few years. If genocide joe had told the nazis to go fuck themselves we wouldn't be here sparring over who gets to define what is evil.
Can we not include the butchers and deniers in the same category: the darkest and ugliest of humanity? Both groups facilitate genocide.
I seriously doubt Palestinians would accuse Kathy of usurping their right to define what's evil.
Peace to you for hearing me and those suffering in real time. My god, most Americans don’t acknowledge the genocide of the Native People (hence P 2025 attempting to “restore America” to what it was — brother ) let alone Palestine, S Africa, etc etc etc. It brings me no sense of satisfaction seeing and speaking of the powerful coldly dismissing generations of people funded by our tax dollars for decades. Yes, deeply evil and dark.
I wrote that I believe Kathy has no right to define the limit of humanities ugliness and darkness. I stand by that assertion for the reasons already presented. I need not factually spar with you (or anyone else) because I stated that as opinion, not fact. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well. Neither of us are entitled to our personal opinions of the facts. Apparently you think you are.
For some inexpiable reason you interpreted my assertion as an attempt to define evil-- which I never did. Perhaps because you are singularly concerned with your own opinion which blinds you to the opinion of others. Fortunately, that's your problem, not mine. If you'd like me to entertain the fantastical notion of evil, I can tell you that I don't believe the word "evil" applies to what is happening to the Palestinians. Why? Because I don't believe religious dogma has anything to do with defining genocide. Rather, it is an international legal matter which religious dogma need not be applied. Further, I find those that must apply the loose concept of evil to define a genocide ignorant and misguided.
Your og post was supportive of what Kathy said at first but devolved into sarcasm about her not being the one to decide that american indifference is the height of "dark and ugly humanity."
Did not Kathy state her point as her opinion?
Your accusations are your confessions.
Why do you get to hide behind 'it's my opinion' but deny her, and me, the same right?
If you don't think the nazi extermination of Palestinians is evil, then what is?
For the record, I've been an avowed atheist for 50 years and religion has zero weight in my definition of evil. Can evil only be interpreted via religion?!
Yeah ok, you win. Maybe evil or human depravity are not in the codes of laws but we can see it when we see it. And we are obligated as humans to call it out.
Go ahead. Feel smug about being denotatively correct re: "law."
But I beg to differ that "this" (this being wanton extermination of innocents) is a matter for international law. We've all seen how effective that is.
1. No, Kathy did not state her point as opinion. You don't need to ask me about this because its a matter of public record. You are apparently just to lazy to realize it. Nonetheless, as I similarly stated earlier, nobody has a right to convey opinion as fact in public without the expectation of being reasonably challenged. Its not a crime, but a matter of Social Etiquette. Being able to distinguish between the two, I believe, is critical toward operating reasonably within a civil society; particularly in this day and age of mass, global, and instant communication.
2. I don't believe I ever presented my opinions as fact in this thread. I apply the same Etiquette of myself as I expect of others. If I ever paraded my opinion as fact, I welcome any attempt to bring that to my attention.
3. The Palestinian genocide has nothing to do with the dogmatic notion of "evil". Genocide is strictly a matter of international law in civil society. How effective that notion is on the international stage (the only stage that I know of that can be brought to bear) is another matter that I feel unnecessary strays afield of the original post. Suffice it to say similar crimes against humanity that generated current genocide law and Convention were addressed at the Nuremberg trials that took place during 1945-46. You many not have liked the results, but I don't believe you can point to a case of accountability that has resulted in a better outcome. Just like the U.S. Constitution that operates as a living and amendable document, there is always room for improvement in international law and its abidance. Again, I believe those improvements will never come by parading personal opinion as fact.
You're not even on the same planet as the people who have OPINED herein.
Where are all your denial and humiliating 'deductions' coming from? Why? Why do you think it's ok to beat up ppl who are grieving over a real horror? Why do you think your 'logic' is gonna set them straight, that they're incorrect in their assessments, their OPINIONS, of a GENOCIDE being the most horrific thing they've (we've) experienced?
You WERE dismissive and smug in your 'opinions' of what Kathy and Stacy said. Neither person declared their views as FACT but rather were expressing their humanity and grief.
Are you in an Intro to Logic class this semester and thinking you've got it all figured out? I went thru that with my daughter and she got served...
There's a difference between deductive and inductive logic, and there's a difference between pouring your grief out and claiming your view is the FACT, and you don't seem to know the distinction.
In your last comment you elide the fact, yes FACT, that the nazis (and yes, I said nazis--prove me wrong with your 'logic') are exterminating innocents. Prove Stacy and Kathy wrong in what are very OBVIOUSLY their opinions.
You've lost the forest for the trees (another metaphor and not to be taken as literally 'losing the forest or seeing trees'). There's literal and there's figurative speech.
You're so hung up on proving Stacy and Kathy to be 'illogical' that you cannot see the pain behind their words and you, shockingly, think this is the place to pull your dictionary of freshman logic out.
Fucking grow some empathy why don't you? And stop taking every word written as literal.
Just really makes me sad that you think THIS is the place to beat down ppl with your faulty bullshit
You're no doubt now coming up with more embarrassing comebacks.
Go for it
Those who don’t bow down and support Israel and Trump will be treated just like the Palestinians. Thankfully there are those around the world engaging in mass protests and strikes against the latest attack against the flotilla attempting to deliver aid. But in the USA there is nothing of the sort taking place compared to those abroad. The sheeple in the USA will be shorn on behalf of TPTB political puppets supporting this ongoing genocide regardless of which brand of the corporate/oligarch uni-party they identify with. We are all Palestinian in their eyes and they will kill us all if they deem it necessary to protect their monstrous grasp of power over us. As Hedges has said many times over the years, our only recourse is massive general strikes and boycotts. But in the USA the sheeple just keep on voting for their own demise and fighting each other in a zombie like manner.
well said!
Thanks, Chris. I was waiting for the dust to settle to be able to see how this is more about PR than it is about justice. You lay it out. Thanks for who you are, and for what you do.
Both Trump and Natanyahu are war criminals, just like their predecessors, and need to be in The Hague for crimes against humanity. This is a sham and while I’m thankful for the respite for the Palestinians from the bombings, I feel Israel is so sadistic and therefore will never stop the killing until they ethnically cleanse all the Palestinians from this land which is and should be Palestine. 😢🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
ditto
Israelis have always been cowards. Can you imagine a real fighting force against Hamas? Hamas with its scooters and hang gliders humiliated the IDF. The only way Israel wins is by dropping bombs from gifted aircraft, or by cowardly terrorist acts against civilians. Pagers, goddamn them. Sneak bombing of civilian negotiators.
So, Israel will lose. It must lose, eventually.
It will make a fatal mistake against a real adversary. I believe Iran is that adversary, and behind Iran will be the whole rest of the Global South, which is as we speak gaining strength, and increasing disgust at these murderous cowards.
I suggest that Netanyahu learn a new spelling for
Iran: W A T E R L O O.
My heart is shattered in a trillion pieces as I watch this horror and see that nothing is stopping it. How can I take anything seriously in this reality? How can one have faith in anything……..
I feel this way too Stacy, as if the issues of climate change and fascism in the US are not enough. It is important to connect with those who feel this pain too if you can find them.
She's found us John! We're HERE bc we feel Stacy's pain and we come here for solace from others whose hearts are broken and souls shredded. We come here to disgorge a tiny bit of the horror and uncomprehending disgust. We come here to remind ourselves that we're not alone and that other humans are out there
While I am grateful for this comment thread and a couple of others that I participate in, my ultimate point to Stacy and yourself is the actual communing with others in person and small groups to discuss major issues of the day. In my life, real live discussions with people who are informed, interested and passionate simply DO NOT HAPPEN. This is a serious problem IMO and the potential for meaningful change for a better world / society is still controlled by TPTB. We disconnected and divided besides being terrified to bring up and understand how we got to this point without be ostracized and cancelled.
I went to a new documentary today titled "Orwell 2 + 2 = 5"
This documentary film demonstrates our impending fascism and how we arrived here - it is brilliant. I urge everyone to see it, to feel it and share it with others if possible before it is too late. Thank you.
There's going to be another massive No Kings day this Sat. Oct 18 (where I'll be sporting my keffiyeh that I never leave the house without).
If you don't already know about it, your mind will be blown when you see how many rallies are happening all over the us. Just punch in your zip code and voila!
You will definitely find others of our kind there. Still, it's not the same as having them in our personal lives
https://www.nokings.org/?SQF_SOURCE=indivisible#map
Wonderful and heartfelt comment; thank for making it.
Oh how you have channeled my soul in one short paragraph
In support of this Hedges piece, I highly recommend the recent Sept.24th, 2025, talk by Norman Finkelstein at U Mass, in which he lays out the history of Israeli aggressions leading to the ongoing genocide, that seems to finally be coming to a head, although I don't hold much hope or any trust of the Zionist criminals. I am unable to post the link but I just found the YouTube video using the key words I mentioned here. The video is 2hrs. & 15-minutes total, long but worth every second of it. Norman is a treasure, a truth teller of integrity - one who has paid a heavy price for doing so for over 40- years.
You are undoubtedly correct. As soon as the Israeli hostages are released, Netanyahu will resume his murderous assault on the Palestinians. I am very surprised that Hamas agreed. It's as clear as day that neither Trump nor Netanyahu can be trusted!!
The only thing that will make the United States and Israel stop is naked force.
More red herrings to divert attention from the one issue that would result in impeachment: Epstein. In the meantime, the Texas National Guard remains uninvited in my home state of Illinois despite gun violence in their own state being out of control. Texas is responsible for more than 10% of the 40K+ gun deaths each year in the US. White House spokeswoman Abigail Jackson said “President Trump will not turn a blind eye to the lawlessness plaguing American cities and we expect to be vindicated by a higher court.” Given that, hopefully the Texas Guard will be sent back home to supervise their neighbors. No one needs it more, other than Florida. If both states were disarmed, annual gun deaths would drop nearly 17%. Greg Abbott’s previous comments suggest he’ll support it. “You can either fully enforce protection for federal employees or get out of the way and let Texas Guard do it,” Abbott said in a post on X.” https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/gun-violence-data/state-gun-violence-data
It is abundantly obvious that Trump has something to hide with regard to Epstein.
For three seconds, I dared to have hope the other morning. That fleeting moment has vanished completely inside Mr Fish's wall of skeletons and the poisonous touch by Mileikowsky the Murderer. How badly I wish for the Great Chris Hedges to (for once) be incorrect ... but it is impossible.
Chris, you are absolutely right and it is beyond frustrating to watch these shams be presented as if they were serious solutions when we know what they really are.
Not a doubt in my mind that every word of this is true. But if you get your “news” from the legacy media, you would think the “war” was over. Thank you, Chris, for your realistic assessment.
So sad/glad that Chris states what is obvious to ppl who've been watching this obliteration re: the 'ceasefire.' (the nazis fire and Palestinians cease)
All this giddy hullaballoo about the ceasefire in the msm and even in some of the middle east sources I use. HOW MANY TIMES HAS A CEASEFIRE BEEN CALLED in the last 2 years?
And even if the wholesale extermination stops, Palestinians will continue to have unimaginable suffering imposed on them in myriad ways for the rest of their lives. The horror hasn't stopped, only changed form. For the moment