The West Serves as Israel's Police (w/ Richard Medhurst) | The Chris Hedges Report

Richard Medhurst's persecution by both British and Austrian authorities signifies a major escalation in Israel's and its allies' full throated attack against the press in the West.

This interview is also available on podcast platforms and Rumble.

Richard Barnard, Sarah Wilkinson, Asa Winstanley and Richard Medhurst. These are some of the canaries in the coal mine for what is to come in the West as the region’s elite quickly becomes Israel’s international police. Medhurst joins host Chris Hedges on this episode of The Chris Hedges Report to talk about his own experiences in the United Kingdom and Austria, where federal agents and police arrested him and searched his home under draconian counterterrorism laws.

“I was just trying to tell the truth as best as I could with the facts that we had at that time and that's it. And I think they're trying to make an example out of me, definitely,” Medhurst tells Hedges.

Medhurst points to Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000 in the UK as one of the broad laws being used to silence people like him. “If they really want to, they can charge you for just saying a simple fact just because the fact is uncomfortable to the government or perhaps they can twist it into saying you're glorifying a group but it's not true,” he explains.

For Medhurst, the UK pinned Schedule 12(1A) on him, which he explains “has never been used before, and escalated it straight to an arrest.” They then took his “fingerprints, [his] DNA, [and] they put [him] in jail for 24 hours.”

Despite his accurate reporting, Medhurst says that the validity of what one says does not matter when it conflicts with the establishment line. “You're not glorifying anyone. You're just stating a fact, but they can still charge you. That's what's so dangerous about this law,” he said.

Austrian security service agents still possess most of Medhurst’s journalistic tools. There is still no clear time table as to when he will get his tools back.

As Medhurst explained:

“It wasn't just my phone and my laptop, which I also use for work, which are my work tools, but …you know, hard drive adapters, things that don't even have data on them, analog microphones. Why would you do that to someone unless you're trying to make a point that you don't want them to continue their work?”

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Chris Hedges

Producer:

Max Jones

Intro:

Diego Ramos

Crew:

Diego Ramos, Sofia Menemenlis and Thomas Hedges

Transcript:

Diego Ramos

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Transcript

Chris Hedges

Richard Medhurst is a journalist from the United Kingdom known for his coverage on international relations and the Middle East. Having spent many years reporting on the persecution of Julian Assange, he now faces his own legal battle in Britain due to his reporting. He is accused not of espionage, but of another political crime nonetheless: "terrorism".

In August 2024, counter terrorism police boarded Medhurst's flight as he landed in Heathrow, and arrested him under the Terrorism Act. This marked the first time in Britain that a journalist had been arrested under Section 12(1A), a provision so broad it effectively criminalizes the press, or anyone who speaks uncomfortable truths.

Since releasing him on bail, the police have kept Medhurst under investigation for almost 9 months, extending the process every quarter. This can potentially go on for years, keeping a person in a state of limbo and uncertainty about their future.

Medhurst was also asked to unlock his phones by the police. He has refused to do so, in order to protect confidential sources and information. However, if the police obtain a court order, refusal to comply under RIPA, another oppressive law, can result in an automatic prison sentence of 2-5 years.

In February, he was told by the UK that the investigation was being extended yet again. Then within a week, Medhurst was suddenly summoned by immigration authorities in Austria, to what turned out to be a trap. He was first issued a thinly-veiled threat that his residency might be revoked because of his work. Then agents belonging to the Austrian security services ambushed him with a warrant, detained him, and raided both his home and studio, seizing all his electronic devices.

This raid was ordered by the Vienna state prosecutor, who accuses Medhurst— who is Christian— of being a member of Hamas' military wing.

Medhurst is now under investigation in both countries, for no other reason than his reporting on Palestine and Lebanon. His criticism of Israel's genocide in Gaza has made him a target of two governments, if not more. If charged and convicted he could potentially face up to 14 years imprisonment in the UK, and/or 10 years in Austria.

Four United Nations Special Rapporteurs have written to British Prime Minister Keir Starmer in protest of this abuse of counterterrorism laws, not just against Medhurst, but the crackdown that ensued following his arrest against dissident voices, such as Craig Murray, Kit Klarenberg and others.

The International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) and the National Union of Journalists (NUJ) have also protested to the government and counterterrorism command at what has happened to Medhurst.

Joining me to discuss this growing assault on journalism is Richard Medhurst. Let's talk a little bit about your reporting. And I have this printout from the Israeli Ministry for Diaspora Affairs and Combating Antisemitism of which you are singled out along with Jeremy Corbyn of all people and Roger Waters from Pink Floyd. And I found what they call the documentation of your support for terrorism just so absurd it's laughable.

They have screenshots, for instance, they must have taken this from something that you sent out. And you write, funny how Al-Qaeda and ISIS haven't lifted a finger to help the Palestinians. It's almost as if they work with Israel and America, not against them. Well, I covered al-Qaeda and ISIS, and Al-Qaeda has long had an animosity to Hamas. They consider Hamas to be apostates. They would never lift a finger to help Hamas.

That's just a factual statement. So I want to talk a little bit about what it is, you know, the kinds of things that you reported. I've, of course, watched your show and done events with you. And why you think it has triggered such a vicious response on the part of Israel and then their surrogates in the UK and Austria.

Richard Medhurst

Thanks for having me on, Chris. Yeah, I laughed when I saw that document, first of all, because I was in shock at the examples they picked too, because, I mean, this term antisemitism is used, as we all know, to silence and stifle criticism of Zionism, which is a European colonial movement.

And they're, of course, labeling us all antisemites so they can smear us, so they can attack our reputations and try to paint us being a bunch of racists. And those examples that they picked, I mean, just to further prove my point, look at what's happened in Syria in the last couple of months with the ouster of [former President of Syria Bashar] al-Assad and then the takeover of [Abu Mohammed al-] Jolani, who headed not just units of ISIS, but also al-Qaeda. was a commander in both.

And while Israel was bombing Damascus afterwards, Jolani and his crowd didn't lift a finger. They never attacked the Israelis, even when Israel is directly bombing their country. So it just raises a bunch of questions, doesn't it? And we have those pictures, of course, of Netanyahu shaking hands with wounded so-called Syrian rebels who are actually better described as being al-Qaeda, taken to these IDF field hospitals.

The Israelis were treating them, giving them medical assistance, if not military assistance and intelligence. So these are documented facts. And like you said, they're at odds with the Palestinians. So I just pointed out some facts, and I don't know why they picked these tweets in particular, but I think it's my coverage in general of Zionism and what's happening in Palestine and in Lebanon and in Syria that's angered them a lot.

Chris Hedges

Let's talk about, you would run, I think, videos that were posted by the resistance and comment on them. I'm wondering if—I mean that's fair journalism by the way—but I'm wondering if that is… I mean do you have any idea why you've now been named, I mean they've devoted of course a whole page to you here, along with the other criminals like Jeremy Corbyn.

Do you have any idea, can you take any guesses to why, you're an Arabic speaker too, we should be clear. Is there, I mean, obviously they start with you and they come for everyone else, but do you have any idea why in particular, maybe it was just that you had a very broad reach? I don't know, have you thought about that?

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I mean, they've cited various examples. I can't go into detail about what exactly they said at this stage, but I'm talking now just broadly about both Austria and the UK. They questioned me for two hours in the UK and they brought up various things and it was all to do with my reporting on Palestine, Lebanon. There was nothing else in the entire world.

And the same thing in Austria, and I mean, I posted this on Twitter, one of the examples that the Vienna State Prosecutor cited, it's actually the first one, is that I allegedly showed a video of Hamas eating triangle-shaped desserts. I mean, I just don't know what to say, honestly. Like, I'm kind of stunned, and I was stunned from the moment they started reading this warrant to me, because in the very beginning, they're saying, you're a member of Hamas and specifically the military wing.

They're basically saying I'm a gunman. It's just that I tried explaining to them, they don't allow Christians in Hamas. It's just not possible for me to be in that group. I've never even been to Palestine before. If I tried to go there, I wouldn't be allowed in by the Israelis, right? They said they're following orders.

It didn't make any difference. I tried explaining all these things to them, but I was shocked that a prosecutor can type these things out and think them up and type them out and act on them and have, you know, agents. These were not just regular police. These were like MI5. They told me they're the equivalent of MI5. Those are their words.

They came and took all my stuff. They were in this room right here and they went through all my things and took photographs of my rooms and the whole place, they even took stuff that doesn't belong to me.

So I'm still kind of in shock that you can make up a fantasy like that and just attack someone based off of lies, based off of things that make no sense.

Chris Hedges

Well, when you landed at Heathrow, if I have this right, you were detained on the plane, right? I mean, the plane landed and wasn't allowed to go to the gate because didn't they come and take you physically off the plane? Is that correct?

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, they boarded the plane. There were six of them.

Chris Hedges

But this is before the passengers disembark.

Richard Medhurst

Correct. Yeah, they wouldn't let anyone disembark. They called me to the front of the plane. And I knew something wrong was happening because the plane just wasn't moving for a bit. Then I started to think, okay, this is finally it. They're going to nick me now because of my work. Even though I haven't done anything wrong, but because I know that other people have been persecuted under the Terrorism Act. David Miranda, Glenn Greenwald’s [late] husband, Craig Murray, it's happened to so many people and so I thought this is probably it.

And then they called me to the front of the plane and yeah two agents got on the flight and they took my bags and then they immediately, they didn't detain me. They arrested me. They officially arrested me and there was, I think one of them was in the tactical gear as well, you know, like proper counterterrorism response which is just so wild that they send six people to begin with and then one of them is like an armed counterterrorism commander. What a waste of resources, you know, to put it mildly.

Chris Hedges

So what do you think, do you think it's just part of the concerted campaign, which is of course being accelerated to shut down anyone who speaks up on behalf of Palestine and they're just beginning to pick off, you know, people like you first? I mean, what do you see this as presaging?

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I mean, police in both countries, in the UK and Austria, they commented on how many followers I had and my reach. So they made a point to... They made a point about it. They said, like, you have a large amount of subscribers and they were showing me, like, of my YouTube page and commenting on the number. And it was in the warrant, in the Austrian warrant. They also wrote down the number of followers I had on every page. So they were trying to make a point that, you know, I'm supposedly a menace or something, you know?

And I think, again, I'm guessing, but I think there's more to what they're letting on. There's things, for example, my coverage of Julian [Assange]'s case, which you also covered, we were in court together. I think that might have bothered them as well. I think it's also my coverage of the NATO war in Ukraine, the Russia-Ukraine war. I think it's all of these things. And I think also the fact that I covered Syria, critically.

I pointed out the fact that the Israelis are involved, America's involved, Britain is involved. It's a regime change operation. I think all of these things must have angered them. And I wasn't trying to anger anyone. I was just trying to tell the truth as best as I could with the facts that we had at that time. And that's it. And I think they're trying to make an example out of me, definitely. And I was already stunned when this happened in the UK. But when they came after me in Austria, I thought, yeah, they really have it in for me. There's something not normal about this.

And I'm shocked that you can even go after someone legally for the same thing in two countries, in two jurisdictions. It just, I mean, I know double jeopardy applies usually to being tried and convicted. And I haven't been charged with a crime in any country, thankfully. But nevertheless, my rights are being limited. My equipment has been taken away. Both in the UK and Austria, they took away my journalistic tools.

It wasn't just my phone and my laptop, which I also use for work, which are my work tools, but microphones, took, you know, hard drive adapters, things that don't even have data on them, analog microphones. Like, why would you do that to someone unless you're trying to make a point that you don't want them to continue their work?

Chris Hedges

My understanding is that, and I mentioned Kit [Klarenberg] and Craig [Murray], but your situation, I think, is worse than theirs. Is that correct? I mean, Craig, of course, was tossed in jail. Kit wasn't expelled, was he, from the UK? Is that correct? But I think yours is more severe, your case.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I mean, they're my colleagues and my friends and what happens to them I consider as an affront on all of us, especially, you members of the press. I think what happened to me is perhaps a bit more escalatory because they didn't just detain me like they've done to everybody else using Schedule 7.

They went with this Schedule 12(1A), which has never been used before, and escalated it straight to an arrest. So they booked me, they took my fingerprints, my DNA, they put me in jail for 24 hours. And keep in mind…

Chris Hedges

This was in the UK?

Richard Medhurst

This is in the UK, yeah. So I was arrested at 6:30 PM and I wasn't questioned until 2 PM the next day. I have no idea what they wanted. And that might have been part of kind of just trying to rattle someone, but it's definitely escalatory to keep me in jail for the full 24 hours and then put me under investigation, release me on bail.

And in Austria, they didn't arrest me, but they detained me and they took my fingerprints as well and they took my DNA as well and mugshots, everything. It's very dehumanizing. So yeah, in both jurisdictions, it's certainly an escalation.

And I think that was when the crackdown began. So after me, they went for Richard Barnard of Palestine Action, they charged him with 12(1A). Then they went after Sarah Wilkinson, they raided her house. And then I think it went after Asa Winstanley's devices. So it was very, very, very clear that a crackdown had begun with my arrest.

Chris Hedges

Do you have any idea of the timing? Do you think something triggered it or not?

Richard Medhurst

I think it's because Labour came to power. So I was arrested in August and they won the election in June, July. You and I were in England for Craig’s campaign in June. So that was the last time I was in the UK in peace. And then when I came back the next time I was arrested. I think that's the shift, which is not me trying to say the Tories are any better. They were the ones giving the Israelis weapons as well. But I think you could imagine that it might be linked to Labour coming to power, especially after what they did to Corbyn.

There was a purge in the Labour Party and a crackdown, and they got rid of anyone who was pro-Palestine, including Jewish MPs. You know, Jackie Walker, Tony Greenstein also booted from Labour, and he's been charged, by the way, under the Terrorism Act, and he was raided as well. So I think that is the trigger, but honestly, I think it's also because we were having an effect in terms of our reporting. Again, we're not taking sides. We were just telling the truth about what's happening in Palestine.

Chris Hedges

What effect has this had on other journalists around you? I mean, as you said, there have been others since they've gone after you. And I think Palestine Action is listed in this Israeli Diaspora Affairs Report, right? I believe they're also just as an organization targeted for allegedly promoting antisemitism. Have they succeeded? I mean, are they essentially shutting down voices that detail what's happening in Palestine?

Richard Medhurst

I think yes, I think they are succeeding. They've succeeded in getting away with genocide. So if you can get away with genocide on live TV, you can… I mean, you're getting away with murder, literally. And I think, you know, I had to make a decision when I got arrested whether to tell people or not, because the lawyers, I think in any case will tell you don't talk about it.

And I know that other people who were detained under Schedule 7, for example, haven't talked about it publicly. They came to me privately after they saw that I got arrested and discussed it with me, but they didn't announce it publicly. And the reason that some of them, for example, didn't want to talk about it publicly is they didn't want other people to start becoming afraid or for a climate of fear to develop or transpire, which is perhaps exactly what these powers want when they're arresting and detaining people. But what they did to me was so new, and again, not just the provision they used, but to make it an actual arrest and to put me in jail.

It was so wild that I felt obligated to tell people about what was happening. And I think that they are succeeding in silencing people. They've certainly put me in a position where I'm not able to talk because if you've looked at the provision 12(1A), it's so broad. I mean, stating a simple fact could really land you in jail. That's how the lawyers explained it to me.

If they really want to, they can charge you for just saying a simple fact just because the fact is uncomfortable to the government and or perhaps, they can twist it into saying you're glorifying a group that's prescribed, but it's not true. You're not glorifying anyone. You're just stating a fact, but they can still charge you. That's what's so dangerous about this law.

Chris Hedges

Well, if the goal was to shut down your platform, at least until now, they succeeded.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I mean, they've made it impossible and difficult for me to work. Yeah, they have. And they've come for me in my country of origin and in my country of residence. There's a very clear agenda here, which is like just to make sure that I stop working. I think there's many aspects to it. There's a material aspect where they take your equipment as they took mine. I mean, we're talking about at least 10,000 euros worth of gear, every single laptop, computer, drive, stick that I bought since I started working in journalism, they took it from me.

And then there's also a psychological aspect to rattle you, to make you feel uncertain, anxious. And the legal aspect, of course, where the law is so broad that this is not a walk in the park. I mean, it's a terrorism investigation. It's purely political, so it can turn into anything. And I've been unable to work now, probably, for almost nine months.

I don't know how long this is going to go on for, but yeah, they've certainly succeeded in that regard.

Chris Hedges

But it's also financial, Richard, too.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, yeah, I haven't been able to work, so I'm not earning anywhere near the same money I was when I was.

Chris Hedges

What do you think the goal is? I mean, I assume the goal is just complete silencing through intimidation of anyone who reports what Israel doesn't want reported.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what their end goal is. Some lawyers and legal experts told me that perhaps their plan ultimately is to keep me in this state of limbo where they don't have to take it to court, but they can still reap the benefit of just silencing me out of, well, just basically out of fear of further legal threats. So that's one potential outcome or situation.

And I'll just remind people that with Richard Barnard, for example, they had him under investigation for a year with 12(1A). They shut the case. They reopened it a week later and charged him. So how can you live like that? They've got you by the neck for the rest of your life. And the other option, of course, is that they actually take it to court.

I don't know what their plan is and I'm glad that the IFJ [International Federation of Journalists] and NUJ [National Union of Journalists] and the United Nations have stood behind me because, as a journalist especially, I'm accredited in Austria, at the UN, in the UK, at the IFJ as well, the international one.

So it is a threat to everyone to basically silence a journalist for their reporting, to arrest them and put them under investigation. And you and I saw what they did to Julian. They really took it to court. They really put him in jail. So I guess all bets are off.

It's not a very exciting prospect to think about what they might do, but I think both strategies align with their interests. They can simply avoid the drama of going to court by also just keeping you under investigation. I really can't tell what their goal is.

Chris Hedges

They seized a manuscript of yours, is that correct, the Austrians?

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, I was working on a book on cyber security and they took it and I pleaded with them. I even offered to unlock the computer if they would promise to give me a copy of the book just so I don't lose my work, but they just took it.

Chris Hedges

And did they say that you would eventually get it back? you know whether you will ever get any of that back?

Richard Medhurst

So I spoke to the IT guys who were picking my stuff apart because they had to bring in two specialists and I tried to understand what was going on with the gear, what's going to happen if they can't get in, what will they do with it and they explained to me that if they can't get in they might ship it off to a different country which I found very interesting to say the least. They said of course that this would go through official channels through police departments across the world cooperate with each other. So that's what they meant.

But to me, I understood it as well my gear might be in London tomorrow morning or in Tel Aviv. And honestly, I don't know where it is. And I asked the police, these agents rather, several times, when do I get my stuff back? Because you're taking my work tools. These are work tools. I can't work without them, whether it's the phones, the computers, all of it. And they told me that if I give them the passwords or the encryption keys, I'll get them back sooner.

But that if I don't, it's gonna take a while. And I told them, how soon will I get them back if I were to give you the passwords hypothetically? And they said, yeah, maybe in a year or a couple of months. I said, well, where's the incentive in any of that? Because again, I don't have anything to hide. I just really want my tools. But yeah, they said it will take a while. And I asked them, and if I don't give you the encryption keys, how long does that take? They said a couple of years.

And the next day after the raid, they came back to my studio, two of these agents, and they handed me a receipt. And it's so long, I didn't even read it. It's really like at least 19, 20 pages, I think 25 pages. So what they did is they had three receipts. They had a receipt from when they detained me and they searched me and basically pickpocketed me. And then they had a second receipt from my home and then a third receipt from my studio.

So these were all the devices they had taken off my person and my workplace and my home. And it was literally like 20 plus pages, at the very least. And I again asked them, when do I get my stuff back? And they said it might take a couple of years and it might be broken when you get it back. Because if you don't give us the encryption keys, we have to pick it apart. And yeah, it could break.

Chris Hedges

I know you use encryption. I don't have as much faith in it. But talk a little bit about the security measures that, and I know you recommend, you've recommended it to me, the security measures you use and the security measures you feel journalists should use.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, it's not just the encryption by itself but the most important thing is the operating system that you're working on. Because an iPhone is encrypted on paper. But how many people have had their phones hacked because they were using iPhones?

And I'm talking specifically about journalists. You know, I was speaking to one from Lebanon just a while back a few weeks ago who was seeking my advice because she had been told by Apple that her phone had been hacked using Pegasus this Israeli spyware tool. [Late Saudi journalist] Jamal Khashoggi was killed, literally chopped up because his phone was compromised. So it's really about the operating system and stock Android is no good.

So when I say stock Android, I mean like, you know Samsung or Huawei or Xiaomi when you buy it as it is. And iOS is no good. So your best bet with a phone is GrapheneOS, that is a stripped down version of Android, there's almost nothing on it.

And you can, of course, install Google services on it afterwards and make it work like a full phone. You would never be able to tell the difference. But it's completely, completely stripped down. And it only works on Google Pixels for the time being. Not because you should trust Google, on the contrary, but when you install Graphene, you wipe the phone of Google's operating system and then you install Android as GrapheneOS, which is stripped down.

And again, Android does not belong to Google. It's open source and you or I could go and make our own version of it. And it takes advantage of the hardware inside. All the other phones, they don't have a secure element inside to protect your passwords, to protect your encryption key, which is exactly what law enforcement rely on to hack the phones. If you recall, the FBI, they asked Apple for a back door and then Apple didn't give it, but they managed to hack it anyway.

That's because there's no mechanism inside the phone, a physical mechanism that stops them from hacking it. It's all software. And unfortunately, most phones, they lack that hardware element, that secure element, which Google Pixels have. So any journalist who's serious about protecting themselves and their colleagues should be on GrapheneOS, on a Google Pixel. This is what I recommend. This is what I use. This is what Snowden recommends and uses as well. And that's what I've been writing about in my book. I've interviewed the leaders of GrapheneOS, the lead developers and many, many others.

It's a comprehensive cyber security Bible. And when it comes to laptops, you should be using Qubes OS, which is a version of Linux. And again, I really did not enjoy researching and writing this book, but I had to do it. I felt obligated to help others. And that's the manuscript that they took from me.

So yeah, I'm working on that and I think it's going to revolutionize how journalists and activists and lawyers protect themselves. It's very, very necessary.

Chris Hedges

Let's talk a little bit about the press coverage of the genocide, which has been, I think, appalling. You know, your work has stood out. Al Jazeera has done some good work. Max Blumenthal at Grayzone has done some good work, but it's a pretty small number.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, and you've also done very good work, Chris. Of course, that goes without saying. And the number is very small because I think many people are aware of what's going to happen to their careers, to their freedoms if they tell the truth simply. It's not about picking a side. Again, the truth just happens to be to Israel's detriment because Israel's committing genocide. It's not because we specifically are trying to pick on anyone.

But I think many people realize that they don't end up like me or like Julian. And so they try and keep their heads down. That doesn't necessarily justify it, but I certainly started to digest and understand why people don't speak out that much about what's happening in Gaza once this stuff happened to me. I got it, if you know what I mean. I really understood it now. Apparently everyone was ahead of me, but...

I'm just being a bit sarcastic, but I really think that that's the reason. You know, there's a phrase about this, right? All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people, for good men to stand idly by. And I think that many journalists are simply too afraid to talk about it, and they see that career advancement lies with protecting Zionism. And they will regret this one day. Not only because it's morally wrong and repugnant, but also because what integrity do they have as journalists and by not telling the truth by lying?

And if I may just add a parentheses about press coverage. The UK press still haven't said a word about what's happened to me. The Austrian press did cover it. However, they all covered it was on TV was in you know in the paper everywhere So at least they had the decency to talk about it.

Chris Hedges

There was no UK press that covered your arrest?

Richard Medhurst

No. No. And I know for a fact that they were aware of it through mutual acquaintances and they haven't talked about it. I mean, they could have perhaps redeemed themselves by covering the letter that the UN wrote to Keir Starmer a few months later. They also didn't cover that.

Chris Hedges

What are you reflecting on this over the past nine months? Do you see a way out? I mean, I just see the walls closing in, especially here under the Trump administration, with kind of frightening rapidity.

Richard Medhurst

If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm not just talking about myself now, but about the whole situation, it's quite depressing. We see that the Israelis and all their backers in London and Washington were able to get away with genocide and there's no one to hold them to account. I'm not naive. I know the UN and the ICC and the ICJ and all the courts in the world weren't going to help.

I mean, my parents worked in the UN. They're the ones who tell me firsthand that the UN just doesn't get anything done. But nevertheless, just to see it played out like that, I think, I mean, it's even worse than Iraq, honestly. And I thought Iraq was bad. I'm not just talking about the war itself with the failure of international law, how we saw the UN go to, sorry, the US go to the UN, Colin Powell, then just ignore what the security council had to say and invade anyway and the UK following them.

I feel like this was even a larger demonstration of just how morally bankrupt the West is, unfortunately. And I feel like no amount of photos or images of dead children in the world is going to change people's minds. And so, yeah, it feels like the walls are closing in. And I don't just mean that about me. I'm just talking generally on, reflecting generally on this whole situation. It does feel like that.

Chris Hedges

You and I both have spent time in Arab countries since the genocide began. It seems that that genocide has now created a divide that's almost unfathomable or unbridgeable, given the very justifiable rage on the Arab street, the great anger at the Arab regimes, which are in most cases client regimes of the United States—Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, et cetera.

As somebody who knows the Arab world what do you see happening? I mean, I just see now this gap probably that can never be closed between the Global South and the Global North.

Richard Medhurst

Yeah, it's difficult to say, Chris, because you would expect most Arab leaders and Muslim leaders to be on the side of the Palestinians. And, you know, once upon a time, maybe they were. But I feel like the fact no one has held the West to account is also emboldening people like the Saudis or the Emiratis to kind of just say, why not go ahead and normalize ties with the Israelis?

And I know they put on a show, they paused it for a bit, and even [Turkish president Recep Tayyip] Erdoğan, who's giving the Israelis fuel and food, likes to talk about how much he supposedly dislikes Netanyahu and Zionism, but they were all friends, under the table, behind the scenes, they were all friends. And no matter how much hatred or anger or outrage people feel on the streets of the Arab world, I don't think that it's going to hold enough sway when it comes to these leaders.

I think they're gonna go ahead with the Abraham Accords plus whatever and just normalize ties. I think that's the direction we're headed in. And so there's not just a divide between the Global North and Global South. There's also a divide between what the average person feels, what the average Arab person feels and what their leaders are doing. And look at Syria now, the last Arab state that had some kind of leverage in the sense that it refused to recognize Israel and it was opposed to Zionism, that's gone too.

So that's another obstacle the Israelis have managed to remove, a massive one that they've been working out for 40, 50 years. And this again speaks to what I was saying, where I feel that they've achieved massive, massive strategic victories. They've gotten away with genocide, they've removed their opponents, whether they're in Gaza, in Lebanon, or so in Palestine, Lebanon, or Syria.

And why should Arab leaders listen to their own people when they can just make more money and make more business ventures come to fruition with the Israelis? It's not going to happen. They're just going to go ahead with their plans. So I don't know how that's going to transpire.

But I'm shocked in Syria seeing how many people just don't care that Israel is taking more land. Because we talk about what they're doing in Palestine. People forget that Syria is also occupied by Israel.

And Syria has lost more ground now. The most strategic point in the Middle East, Mount Hermon, they took it, the Israelis, in the last months. And I think it's the fatigue from the war that explains part of it, but it's shocking to see the animosity and the indifference from even some Arab people towards the fact that they're losing land and there's a genocide. It's quite shocking.

Chris Hedges

And just to close, where do you see the genocide going? How do you think it's going to play out in Gaza and maybe the West Bank?

Richard Medhurst

Well, I think the plan originally was to get this gas that is off the coast of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria. Because we have to remember that they sanctioned Iran when Trump pulled out of the nuclear deal. So that cut off a large amount of gas to Europe. And then Russia was sanctioned. That also cut off a large amount of gas.

And then the Israelis signed a gas deal with Egypt and the EU. But where are they going to get this gas from? So I think that's one of their economic goals. And they, of course, plan to settle it, to expel and deport and ethnically cleanse Gaza. That was something they announced as well in the first couple of days.

And they haven't abandoned these plans. I think this is where it's headed and no one's paying attention to the West Bank, unfortunately, where they're also stealing more and more land. And they're now using planes to bomb it again, like during the Intifada. They've got tanks rolling through there as well. So this is what happens. What we were talking about earlier, where we have people standing idly by, it just allows evil to flourish.

So when the press corps don't do their job, this is what happens. The lack of coverage promotes and allows for the growth of this kind of aggression. So their whole plan for the Middle East is a greater Israel. So they're not only going to take the resources, but they're also going to take the land and colonize it to expand. I mean, you heard [Israeli Minister of Finance Bezalel] Smotrich saying just a few months ago on television that their greater Israel will extend to Damascus.

Lo and behold, they're basically on the outskirts of Damascus. So it's headed in that direction. That is what is happening. They've achieved massive strategic victories. And again, I don't say that because I'm on Israel's side. I say that because that is what seems to be the case on the ground. Of course, only time will tell, but right now they've gotten away with it and their plans are exactly that.

Economic, take all the resources, help out the Europeans, help out the West, and of course, take the land for their greater resort project. That's where it's headed.

Chris Hedges

But you've also traumatized now hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, half of the residents of Gaza under the age of 18. The only mechanism they have to fight back at this point, with the exception of maybe the armed groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas, is terrorism.

They don't have an air force. It just seems inevitable that there's going to be what the CIA calls blowback. And if there is a terrorist attack in the UK, that can be traced in some way to not just Palestinians, perhaps Muslims. That seems a gift to figures like Trump to just shut everything down instantly, maybe Starmer as well.

Richard Medhurst

It could be. It could be. And what's sad about all this is that, you know, the number one victims, even though perhaps Trump and Starmer would claim otherwise, but the number one victims at the end of the day continue to be Arabs and Muslims.

You look at what Al-Qaeda did, you look at what ISIS did. These spooks that are playing all these games, you know, the ones that caused this blowback and who coined this term in the first place, I mean I find it incredible that they have the nerve to accuse me terrorism because I got blown up by [Ayman al-] Zawahiri, who is Jolani's mentor, who is [Osama] bin Laden's mentor, when he targeted the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad.

And then they have the nerve to accuse me of being a terrorist. So I did realize the irony in all that. it works out to their benefit, doesn't it? They either use these people as tools or then when it turns to blow back, they suddenly create more racism or rather a larger climate of racism and fear and xenophobia so they can get away with pushing a right-wing agenda.

I mean, again, I don't want to sit here and pretend like it isn't depressing. It is and that's just what's going on. I think we wouldn't be doing the truth justice or people justice by trying to paint this as a rosy picture. It really isn't.

And I wouldn't be surprised just to underscore your point, Chris, if things like that happen. And again, I'm not taking sides or justifying anything. It's just that I've been a victim of that myself with CIA blowback when they lose control of their proxies. I think that anything is possible.

Chris Hedges

Unfortunately. Thank you. That was Richard Medhurst. I want to thank Diego [Ramos], Thomas [Hedges], Sofia [Menemenlis], and Max [Jones], who produced the show. can find me at ChrisHedges.Substack.com.

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Photos

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