Chris Hedges talks to Professor Joan Scott about the late Amy Kaplan's cultural analysis of the US and Israel's mythological shared history and how it has manufactured consent for Israel's atrocities.
Thank you Chris Hedges. You’re always the best read of the day.
In my opinion WWII was a dress rehearsal, practice. A way to test methods, tolerance, strategies. Death camps, gas chambers, and crematoria, available soon on Amazon Prime.
Now the glitches are being ironed out. Israel is showing how it’s really done.
But even Israel is just a test market. The real client is the Western Bloc of nations. The propaganda machine, the censorship, all of it, test marketed in Gaza, is being implemented here, in Germany, France, Canada, Australia, and beyond. And our tax dollars pay for everything. America isn’t being used by the Zionists, they’re partners.
The Pegasus spy software goes against the US constitution. Why is it not banned? Because America needs it. Netanyahu is a wanted outlaw; why is he not arrested? Because America needs him. Donald Trump laughingly accepts a gold plated instrument of terrorism (a pager), from a war criminal. Why are they not hung in effigy from every lamppost? Because television, Netflix, and “free shipping”. (Will that be the last American thing that’s free?) Ralph Nader postulates that peaceful revolution can be effected by 2% of the population. Who’s not doing anything next week?
With all due respect, "free shipping" from Amazon and the like is about as free as shopping as a member of Costco-or any other exploitive, corporate middleman conglomerate-that exist as weigh stations between the producer and the consumer.
I envy those who had Professor Scott as a teacher and will seek out her books in addition to the Kaplan book. I think Chris Hedges is an excellent interviewer, but thought he interrupted and talked over Professor Scott a bit. Nonetheless, a thought provoking discussion, and I am grateful for his reports. They help me retain some sanity in the craziness of the present. BTW, I am reading Orwell’s 1984 for the first time. I thought it may have lost some relevance in the intervening years, but in some places it reads like a script for the Heritage Foundation’s 2025 Project, e.g., the rewriting of history, purging of words, etc.
Great interview, thanks to both of you. Each time I go deeper on this theme I got surprised of how much I have missed in the past. In this case referring to the manipulation of history, the following words of Mr. Hedges were new to me "And of course, as you well know, the irony of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, is that the only commander, deputy commander of the uprising, Marek Edelman, condemned the apartheid state, the settler colonial state, recognized Palestinians' right to self-determination and resistance, even armed resistance, drawing analogies between his resistance, the resistance he and the ghetto fighters carried out in Warsaw, and the resistance in Palestine.
And so on the one hand, yes, they use the Warsaw ghetto uprising but the only major historical figure was an anathema, was a pariah in Israel itself."
A movie which affected me greatly was “The Search” directed by Fred Zinneman. I watched this movie on 1950’s TV. Released in 1948, the year I was born, it tells the story of a Czech mother looking for her son following her separation from him in a concentration camp. Though the protagonists are non-Jewish, a theme of orphaned Jewish children, their rehabilitation and salvific transportation to Israel is expertly woven into the story. In the light of the ongoing genocide, it all becomes painfully ironic. The movie was filmed among the rubble and ruins of post-war Europe and looks just like the total destruction in Gaza. And the ragged children in the movie are now recalled when I see the Palestinian children of Gaza. Where is there any mercy?
Although we turned away a boat load of Jews landing on our shores in 1939 that were seeking refuge and in grave danger, things changed after the war and during the Truman administration. He ditched Russia, a possible competitor, even though they suffered a great number of casualties. I think Truman saw them as a threat, but supporting an Israeli state in the Middle east could be used to our advantage while it glorified our sense of humanity. Israeli's used their victimization after the war to implement the NAKBA which also reflected their distain for Arabs and Muslims which didn't bother Americans, or Europeans at all. However I do think with a growing acceptance of Muslims and the Arab world what Israel did to it's neighbors and what they did in Lebanon and it's sheer brutality, killing a couple of thousand in a few days, as well as their continuing wars, and their brutal assaults on the Palestinians began to draw criticism from the US, and even some American presidents didn't become Israel's lap dogs. Today there is almost total silence in regard to Israel's actions. However I now think the alliance is based almost solely on the control Israel has over our elected officials through AIPAC which has got to go if there is to be a more honest perspective in regard to Israel, as does the worn out smear of anti-Semitism even if Israel is implementing a genocide.
This cultural and mythological approach sure explains images of who's "we" and who's the dark Other. How +white makes right+ morally, culturally, and politically. Learn how to identify as white and become acceptable, like the Irish, Italians, and Jews in the U.S. who were once suspicious Other. All who can't pass remain Other. Indigenous Others must be forcibly converted for their own good. Any resistance is proof of an implacable danger to the superior "we" and must be eradicated.
Also explains my own gut level reaction to the current intellectual fad among Europeans and Euro descendants of referring to group behavior, particularly if exclusionary, as "tribal." When I've objected, even leftists have told me it's just a descriptor. No, it's not! Consider how "tribal" has been used historically--for subSaharan Africans, indigenous Australians, and the First peoples of the Americas. You know...dark, primitive, emotional. Whereas Euro identities are "ethnic," those among the light skinned, civilized, rational.
This same mentality has (re)cast zionist Israelis as Euro/white and Palestinians as dangerous dark Other. Of course it resonates in the U.S. and former Euro colonial powers.
Excellent. The "I wish these Palestinians weren't forcing us into murdering them..." describes the logic both of my senators use when I write them to stop forcing me to be a war criminal.
Another wonderful , informative interview by my man Chris Hedges. Thanks for all the great work you do to inform us of what is happening in Gaza, the United States and the world and your efforts to make the world a better place for everyone.
Australia had "Terra Nullius," land that is legally deemed to be unoccupied or uninhabited. What this meant for the savage Europeans who colonised Australia was "Non homines albis;" no white men.
You are my Obi wan Kenobi, Chris Hedges. My professor. This is a talk I’ll have to listen to a few times and take notes. I just wanted to say, this was the first time I heard you LAUGH, and it was so unexpected and delightful.
Thank you Chris Hedges. You’re always the best read of the day.
In my opinion WWII was a dress rehearsal, practice. A way to test methods, tolerance, strategies. Death camps, gas chambers, and crematoria, available soon on Amazon Prime.
Now the glitches are being ironed out. Israel is showing how it’s really done.
But even Israel is just a test market. The real client is the Western Bloc of nations. The propaganda machine, the censorship, all of it, test marketed in Gaza, is being implemented here, in Germany, France, Canada, Australia, and beyond. And our tax dollars pay for everything. America isn’t being used by the Zionists, they’re partners.
The Pegasus spy software goes against the US constitution. Why is it not banned? Because America needs it. Netanyahu is a wanted outlaw; why is he not arrested? Because America needs him. Donald Trump laughingly accepts a gold plated instrument of terrorism (a pager), from a war criminal. Why are they not hung in effigy from every lamppost? Because television, Netflix, and “free shipping”. (Will that be the last American thing that’s free?) Ralph Nader postulates that peaceful revolution can be effected by 2% of the population. Who’s not doing anything next week?
With all due respect, "free shipping" from Amazon and the like is about as free as shopping as a member of Costco-or any other exploitive, corporate middleman conglomerate-that exist as weigh stations between the producer and the consumer.
Exactly right. I meant that ironically, thus: “quotes”. It’s one of the subtle lies of online marketing, I’m glad you noticed.
I envy those who had Professor Scott as a teacher and will seek out her books in addition to the Kaplan book. I think Chris Hedges is an excellent interviewer, but thought he interrupted and talked over Professor Scott a bit. Nonetheless, a thought provoking discussion, and I am grateful for his reports. They help me retain some sanity in the craziness of the present. BTW, I am reading Orwell’s 1984 for the first time. I thought it may have lost some relevance in the intervening years, but in some places it reads like a script for the Heritage Foundation’s 2025 Project, e.g., the rewriting of history, purging of words, etc.
Maybe you're right but she didn't seem to mind.
Agree.
Great interview, thanks to both of you. Each time I go deeper on this theme I got surprised of how much I have missed in the past. In this case referring to the manipulation of history, the following words of Mr. Hedges were new to me "And of course, as you well know, the irony of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, is that the only commander, deputy commander of the uprising, Marek Edelman, condemned the apartheid state, the settler colonial state, recognized Palestinians' right to self-determination and resistance, even armed resistance, drawing analogies between his resistance, the resistance he and the ghetto fighters carried out in Warsaw, and the resistance in Palestine.
And so on the one hand, yes, they use the Warsaw ghetto uprising but the only major historical figure was an anathema, was a pariah in Israel itself."
A movie which affected me greatly was “The Search” directed by Fred Zinneman. I watched this movie on 1950’s TV. Released in 1948, the year I was born, it tells the story of a Czech mother looking for her son following her separation from him in a concentration camp. Though the protagonists are non-Jewish, a theme of orphaned Jewish children, their rehabilitation and salvific transportation to Israel is expertly woven into the story. In the light of the ongoing genocide, it all becomes painfully ironic. The movie was filmed among the rubble and ruins of post-war Europe and looks just like the total destruction in Gaza. And the ragged children in the movie are now recalled when I see the Palestinian children of Gaza. Where is there any mercy?
Although we turned away a boat load of Jews landing on our shores in 1939 that were seeking refuge and in grave danger, things changed after the war and during the Truman administration. He ditched Russia, a possible competitor, even though they suffered a great number of casualties. I think Truman saw them as a threat, but supporting an Israeli state in the Middle east could be used to our advantage while it glorified our sense of humanity. Israeli's used their victimization after the war to implement the NAKBA which also reflected their distain for Arabs and Muslims which didn't bother Americans, or Europeans at all. However I do think with a growing acceptance of Muslims and the Arab world what Israel did to it's neighbors and what they did in Lebanon and it's sheer brutality, killing a couple of thousand in a few days, as well as their continuing wars, and their brutal assaults on the Palestinians began to draw criticism from the US, and even some American presidents didn't become Israel's lap dogs. Today there is almost total silence in regard to Israel's actions. However I now think the alliance is based almost solely on the control Israel has over our elected officials through AIPAC which has got to go if there is to be a more honest perspective in regard to Israel, as does the worn out smear of anti-Semitism even if Israel is implementing a genocide.
This cultural and mythological approach sure explains images of who's "we" and who's the dark Other. How +white makes right+ morally, culturally, and politically. Learn how to identify as white and become acceptable, like the Irish, Italians, and Jews in the U.S. who were once suspicious Other. All who can't pass remain Other. Indigenous Others must be forcibly converted for their own good. Any resistance is proof of an implacable danger to the superior "we" and must be eradicated.
Also explains my own gut level reaction to the current intellectual fad among Europeans and Euro descendants of referring to group behavior, particularly if exclusionary, as "tribal." When I've objected, even leftists have told me it's just a descriptor. No, it's not! Consider how "tribal" has been used historically--for subSaharan Africans, indigenous Australians, and the First peoples of the Americas. You know...dark, primitive, emotional. Whereas Euro identities are "ethnic," those among the light skinned, civilized, rational.
This same mentality has (re)cast zionist Israelis as Euro/white and Palestinians as dangerous dark Other. Of course it resonates in the U.S. and former Euro colonial powers.
Excellent. The "I wish these Palestinians weren't forcing us into murdering them..." describes the logic both of my senators use when I write them to stop forcing me to be a war criminal.
This interview helped me put everything I’ve been thinking and feeling for the last few years into words with a deep historical context.
It also help push me to finally subscribe instead of just being a freeloader 😇.
Very good interview, Chris. Thank you, and to the professor. 😢☮️🇵🇸
Thanks, learnt so much.
Another wonderful , informative interview by my man Chris Hedges. Thanks for all the great work you do to inform us of what is happening in Gaza, the United States and the world and your efforts to make the world a better place for everyone.
Australia had "Terra Nullius," land that is legally deemed to be unoccupied or uninhabited. What this meant for the savage Europeans who colonised Australia was "Non homines albis;" no white men.
You are my Obi wan Kenobi, Chris Hedges. My professor. This is a talk I’ll have to listen to a few times and take notes. I just wanted to say, this was the first time I heard you LAUGH, and it was so unexpected and delightful.