In his new book, “Palaces of the Crow,” Ray Nayler examines human nature through the lens of caring and community amidst the often hidden horrors of World War II.
I would love to read this book. Birdwatching has been a hobby since college. I picked it up by taking a course in ornithology. The teacher who taught the course had shared bird watching with her husband, also a professor, but died the year before. Many years later my husband and I were driving down a rural road, and an injured starling was lying on the road surrounded by other starlings who were pacing, and seemed agitated. My husband stopped the car, and I got out, picked up the starling and took it across the road to a house and placed it on a lawn. Very suddenly many starlings surrounded us. They were agitated, anxious, and I could feel it. They stayed until the moment of the starlings death which they perceived in it's absolute stillness, then quite suddenly flew off. What seemed strange was sharing this anxious moment with starlings who were experiencing the same anxiety I felt, and yes I could feel it. That was the first and last time I felt as if I were part of a flock of birds, that is one of them.
Amazing interview. Made me realize, once more, how much I don't know.
Another book for the pile of books I want to read. I already have four waiting for me to end the current one.
Crows are just incredible. I love observing how animals solve problems and help each other. It makes me think that the human species is going backwards because we just seem to create problems that we don't want to solve. That is the reality with the "leaders" of the world, at least.
But I also know that there are small communities doing exactly that: getting together and practicing mutual aide. Isn't this a pure form of communism?
I recently finished a book that one could say is also the opposite of Lord of the Flies. The name is Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids, by Kenzaburo Oe, and it is also about young "reformatory" boys left behind in a village during WW2 in Japan, after the plague hit the village. I do recommend it
I intend to read this story, But I must take issue with the characterization of Hitler and Stalin as equally monstrous and the Germans and Soviet people equally victimized. Hitler and Hitlerian fascism was the greatest evil seen in centuries, dedicated to the mass murder of all Jews, and Roma with Slavs to be murdered or enslaved. The people of the Soviet Union displayed the highest heroism and Stalin;s crimes do not change he fact that the Soviets saved many millions from annihilation.
thank you so much for this view from soft, i.e. non-violent, and encouraging angles.
warmongers and -profit€€r$ all too often still succeed in CON_vincing us that our utmost aim must be to most barbarically crush our perceived enemies. instead, collaboration is what brings us forward and what we are indeed capable of. huffing and puffing in competitive capitalism just makes us forget, even unlearn that capacity.
the fact that every animal on this planet knows how to do at least one thing better than the “paragon of animals“ humbles, and amuses me at times. while it motivates others to subdue the earth [dominium terrae], uproot everything. rootlessness. ruthlessness.
as to caring, i still hope that, or at least wonder whether we'll get [back] to the stage where we CARE enough to DARE and SHARE FAIRLY what's THERE.
This view of animals (including us ) agrees with Charles Darwin's quote on The Descent of Man, 1871:
"The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience."
Today we continue learning in awe the great skills that animals have. The following are quotes from the book "The Best American Science and Nature Writing 2025: A Collection of the Year's Most Insightful Essays on the Natural World, Climate Change, and the Wonders of Science Curated by Susan Orlean":
"“Anthropomorphism” is s a common error: the assumption that animals have human qualities. A less familiar term, “anthropectomy,” also describes a kind of error—that of baselessly assuming animals don’t share certain qualities with us. Which kind of error is a person more likely to make? Or are these not errors but, rather, starting points, with someone like Jane Goodall starting from the premise that 98.7 percent of our DNA is shared with chimps, and someone else starting from the fact that we humans have sequenced our own DNA and no other species has even invented pliers? Since we’re still arguing about what language is, it’s difficult to say which assumption about animal language is more presumptuous."
"The quiet of the pandemic brought natural sounds to the foreground for Maddie Cusimano, who was then a graduate researcher of auditory perception at MIT’s Center for Brains, Minds, and Machines. “Like a lot of people, I had the sense of getting to know the birds around me for the first time,” she told me. Two doves were often visible from her window; she read that, in some dove pairs, one bird sings to the other in the mornings, and in the evenings the roles reverse. Cusimano was familiar enough with machine learning that, when she tried out bird-identification apps, she thought, I could help make this kind of thing."
"Cusimano is now a senior scientist specializing in AI research at the Earth Species Project (ESP), a nonprofit dedicated to “using artificial intelligence to decode non-human communication. Katie Zacarian, the organization’s co-founder and CEO isn’t expecting a Google Translate for animal languages, but she does believe that we can understand animals better. She remembers that, as a kid, people often brought her father, an entomologist, pictures and specimens and asked: What is this? Her mother was a researcher and Those who live and work alongside animals, whether they’re scientists or not, often think, as a matter of course, that animals can speak with one another, and in depth. Instead of being surprised by the discovery of each “unexpected” animal ability, maybe we should be surprised that humans have such low expectations. Many of us laugh—or shake our heads sadly—when we read that Descartes supposedly threw a cat out of a window to see if it would show fear, as a sort of test for consciousness. (He believed that nonhuman animals were senseless automatons.) Yet many of us would also consider it a wonder that, according to a recent study, elephants seem to have distinct names for one another, which their elephant friends and family use among themselves."
I disagree about humans being the least violent great ape. Bonobos use sex to settle down their arguments and issues. It is a group effort to keep the peace and it is the females that gang up on the bad apple(s) and beat them up and kick them out of the group, again if sex doesn't work first.
I love that your interview transcript is posted on Substack.
While listening to your interview with Ray Nayler, 2 books that came to mind:
1. By Joe Schlesinger, titled: "Time Zones". Schlesinger was a WWII survivor who became a Canadian War Correspondent. This book is beautifully written. Published in 1990.
2. By Candance Savage, titled: "Bird Brains", The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies & Jays. This beautiful picture, teaching book was published in 1995.
Great interview. I needed some recharge. Just listening to these two guys was a renovation of spirit.
I would love to read this book. Birdwatching has been a hobby since college. I picked it up by taking a course in ornithology. The teacher who taught the course had shared bird watching with her husband, also a professor, but died the year before. Many years later my husband and I were driving down a rural road, and an injured starling was lying on the road surrounded by other starlings who were pacing, and seemed agitated. My husband stopped the car, and I got out, picked up the starling and took it across the road to a house and placed it on a lawn. Very suddenly many starlings surrounded us. They were agitated, anxious, and I could feel it. They stayed until the moment of the starlings death which they perceived in it's absolute stillness, then quite suddenly flew off. What seemed strange was sharing this anxious moment with starlings who were experiencing the same anxiety I felt, and yes I could feel it. That was the first and last time I felt as if I were part of a flock of birds, that is one of them.
Amazing interview. Made me realize, once more, how much I don't know.
Another book for the pile of books I want to read. I already have four waiting for me to end the current one.
Crows are just incredible. I love observing how animals solve problems and help each other. It makes me think that the human species is going backwards because we just seem to create problems that we don't want to solve. That is the reality with the "leaders" of the world, at least.
But I also know that there are small communities doing exactly that: getting together and practicing mutual aide. Isn't this a pure form of communism?
I recently finished a book that one could say is also the opposite of Lord of the Flies. The name is Nip the Buds, Shoot the Kids, by Kenzaburo Oe, and it is also about young "reformatory" boys left behind in a village during WW2 in Japan, after the plague hit the village. I do recommend it
I intend to read this story, But I must take issue with the characterization of Hitler and Stalin as equally monstrous and the Germans and Soviet people equally victimized. Hitler and Hitlerian fascism was the greatest evil seen in centuries, dedicated to the mass murder of all Jews, and Roma with Slavs to be murdered or enslaved. The people of the Soviet Union displayed the highest heroism and Stalin;s crimes do not change he fact that the Soviets saved many millions from annihilation.
thank you so much for this view from soft, i.e. non-violent, and encouraging angles.
warmongers and -profit€€r$ all too often still succeed in CON_vincing us that our utmost aim must be to most barbarically crush our perceived enemies. instead, collaboration is what brings us forward and what we are indeed capable of. huffing and puffing in competitive capitalism just makes us forget, even unlearn that capacity.
the fact that every animal on this planet knows how to do at least one thing better than the “paragon of animals“ humbles, and amuses me at times. while it motivates others to subdue the earth [dominium terrae], uproot everything. rootlessness. ruthlessness.
as to caring, i still hope that, or at least wonder whether we'll get [back] to the stage where we CARE enough to DARE and SHARE FAIRLY what's THERE.
This view of animals (including us ) agrees with Charles Darwin's quote on The Descent of Man, 1871:
"The following proposition seems to me in a high degree probable—namely, that any animal whatever, endowed with well marked social instincts, the parental and filial affections being here included, would inevitably acquire a moral sense or conscience."
Today we continue learning in awe the great skills that animals have. The following are quotes from the book "The Best American Science and Nature Writing 2025: A Collection of the Year's Most Insightful Essays on the Natural World, Climate Change, and the Wonders of Science Curated by Susan Orlean":
"“Anthropomorphism” is s a common error: the assumption that animals have human qualities. A less familiar term, “anthropectomy,” also describes a kind of error—that of baselessly assuming animals don’t share certain qualities with us. Which kind of error is a person more likely to make? Or are these not errors but, rather, starting points, with someone like Jane Goodall starting from the premise that 98.7 percent of our DNA is shared with chimps, and someone else starting from the fact that we humans have sequenced our own DNA and no other species has even invented pliers? Since we’re still arguing about what language is, it’s difficult to say which assumption about animal language is more presumptuous."
"The quiet of the pandemic brought natural sounds to the foreground for Maddie Cusimano, who was then a graduate researcher of auditory perception at MIT’s Center for Brains, Minds, and Machines. “Like a lot of people, I had the sense of getting to know the birds around me for the first time,” she told me. Two doves were often visible from her window; she read that, in some dove pairs, one bird sings to the other in the mornings, and in the evenings the roles reverse. Cusimano was familiar enough with machine learning that, when she tried out bird-identification apps, she thought, I could help make this kind of thing."
"Cusimano is now a senior scientist specializing in AI research at the Earth Species Project (ESP), a nonprofit dedicated to “using artificial intelligence to decode non-human communication. Katie Zacarian, the organization’s co-founder and CEO isn’t expecting a Google Translate for animal languages, but she does believe that we can understand animals better. She remembers that, as a kid, people often brought her father, an entomologist, pictures and specimens and asked: What is this? Her mother was a researcher and Those who live and work alongside animals, whether they’re scientists or not, often think, as a matter of course, that animals can speak with one another, and in depth. Instead of being surprised by the discovery of each “unexpected” animal ability, maybe we should be surprised that humans have such low expectations. Many of us laugh—or shake our heads sadly—when we read that Descartes supposedly threw a cat out of a window to see if it would show fear, as a sort of test for consciousness. (He believed that nonhuman animals were senseless automatons.) Yet many of us would also consider it a wonder that, according to a recent study, elephants seem to have distinct names for one another, which their elephant friends and family use among themselves."
I disagree about humans being the least violent great ape. Bonobos use sex to settle down their arguments and issues. It is a group effort to keep the peace and it is the females that gang up on the bad apple(s) and beat them up and kick them out of the group, again if sex doesn't work first.
I loved the discussion gentlemen. Thought provoking and informative as always. You are both important faces around the fire.
I'll be off to find a copy of "Palaces of The Crow" this weekend. The Mountain in the Sea was amazing. Thanks for all your efforts!
Amazing interview. I didn't have time, but I read the entire transcript, and it was well worth it. You both brought some hope into my soul.
Wonderful. Thank you!
I love that your interview transcript is posted on Substack.
While listening to your interview with Ray Nayler, 2 books that came to mind:
1. By Joe Schlesinger, titled: "Time Zones". Schlesinger was a WWII survivor who became a Canadian War Correspondent. This book is beautifully written. Published in 1990.
2. By Candance Savage, titled: "Bird Brains", The Intelligence of Crows, Ravens, Magpies & Jays. This beautiful picture, teaching book was published in 1995.
Thank you for your continued great work.